df22 - podcasting
[00:00:00] Tim: So I'm Tim Panton
Vim: and I'm Vimla Appadoo
Tim: and this is the distributed future podcast. And this episode is somewhat meta in that it's about podcasts and the rise of podcasts and where we think they might be going. Podcasts are kind of weird because they started a long time ago and then they sort of went quiet and now they're having a Renaissance and it's really interesting like how how many people talk about?
Oh, you know, "I heard that on a podcast" or like kind of. Reference the more like they really are something that people talk about and if they talk about them on buses, but like they do come up in conversation, which is kind of interesting because it's new I think
Vim: yeah, I think that is new and I think it's I think there are a few things that played into this.
I think it's easier to listen to a podcast on a commute than it is to pull out a book and I think that's true of like audio books as well. I think more we're using our devices to listen to more now than ever. [00:01:00] So not always something Visual and always something like a video or Netflix on your phone, but just having something to listen to you.
That's easy get you the information but also gives you time to think about things differently as well.
Tim: Right. I have a friend who has this measure for an audiobook, which is that if she allows it in from the car, then it's really good. Like so she has a series of audio books that she listens to on commutes and you know driving around for work and then if they really good she'll get them into the house and listen to them like on the stereo at home, but they have to be like beyond the
Vim: really yeah interesting because I can't imagine I've tried
like listening to a podcast while I'm doing the ironing or things like that, but I just can't do it for me. It's a very like using the time that I have getting to places task. It's that's when I listen to podcasts. That's when I will try and do an audiobook other other circumstances just doesn't [00:02:00] work for me.
Tim: That's interesting because I like I have I have a in Berlin. I have a podcast player a dedicated podcast player sitting on my kitchen table and I listen to it over breakfast and I listen to it in the evening when I'm cooking dinner and pretty much no other time in the day.
Vim: Oh, yeah. That's I think it's you know, I think it's because when I'm commuting I I will focus on it.
Whereas if I'm doing another task my brain wanders and I don't really listen, right? So that's where I'm like background music or just something playing on the TV not not something that I actually want to engage with.
Tim: Right right no. I mean I can I can cook and listen like that.
Tim: sort of they're not incompatible and I can certainly eat breakfast and listen to ya no, interesting.
So the conversation is Vic is actually also about the kind of mechanics of podcasts and and you know, how. How they are made and what you need to do to make them not kind of in [00:03:00] huge amount of depth but like talking about them and and. And it made me super conscious of like the process of producing this podcast.
Like I sort of evolved in a we've kind of got ourselves into a little bit of a habit about how it works but talking to Vic. I suddenly realized like, oh we do that or we don't do this and and and and I've got this kind of I know that when I actually put this one together, I'm going to feel really super challenged about whether I'm doing the editing right.
Like, you know, is it going to be super polished like Vic would want it and I'm like actually and kind of go going to go the other way. I'm just going to throw it together and it's going to sound like a mess but I sort of I almost like that's an aesthetic in itself. It's a like, you know, this is you're hearing us.
It's a sort of a more authentic feel to it than like than we do if I'd removed all the likes and the umms.
Vim: Yeah. Yeah, and I think so. There's a podcast that I started to listen to but the podcasters also [00:04:00] video record the interviews that they do. So the their main focus is actually people watching it on YouTube and the podcast is a subset of that and you can really tell when you're listening to it just as a podcast because the convent that they talk over each other and they argue and it's is quite comedic.
And when you're listening to it is is a just a listener. It's quite frustrating because you can't it's not just a flowing conversation. But as I can imagine if you're watching it, it would be fine. It'll be like a comedy sketch and you can you can see their relationship with one another and I think that was really interesting for me to hear if like that the kind of spectrum of messiness versus cleanness or precision.
Well, if you're trying to do too many mediums at once to do it doesn't work.
Tim: Right right. I mean I had I had that experience the podcast over and I'm listening to called Lingthusiasm and those are a couple of [00:05:00] interesting things about that. But one of them is that they did it recently they they did a patreon and they raise some money and they decided to video record an episode and they video recorded an episode of this thing thats about language.
So you think it would make a perfect podcast but actually. Very interested in gestures and how you gesture when you're speaking and how they like how that ties into when you speak and actually really interesting podcast, but what was weird about it is of course, they gestured a lot and they just they demonstrated the gestures which works in video on YouTube but didn't work in audio so then started to try and describe the gestures and that really doesn't work, you know.
Tim: so so kind of interesting what like has you say how the content. Is affected by the medium and how you how it how it works. I kind of and and Vic was saying one of the things that I took away from what Vic was saying is that you can then edit down little kind of sub [00:06:00] adverts of of content little nuggets of content, which I sort of like.
I get but I sort of feel it is wrong. You watch it here the whole thing, you know, but yeah, it's interesting interesting set of challenges there about no know how people have people listen and you've got to try and get your head around what can what position they're in when they're listening what they're doing what their know, do you repeat what you say because they might have missed it or should you just assume that everyone's listening and focusing on what you're doing.
And I've lost you. We've got this weird thing where you vanish.
Vim: Can you hear me now?
Tim: I can what happened but it went anyway. Well,
Vim: I took a little 4% package lost.
Tim: Right? Mmm or should have been fine. Anyway. Yeah, we're well, there you go. There's an edit I'll have to make but
Vim: yeah, maybe if you keep it in just to prove.
But what I was going to [00:07:00] say is the length of time the length of the length of a podcast has a big impact on me as well. So if it's too short I get frustrated listening to 3 or 4 all on my commute. Where is if it's too long? And I have to break it up over me over two commutes I get frustrated as well.
Tim: Yeah. Yeah that and so you've got to try and understand how you think that people are listening to it. I like kind of who again we took it took him to Vic about this there are certain kind of little info bursts that like five minutes of of news or tweet of the day or something like little little crispy things and then there's and then.
More discursive thing and I think we're aiming for the more kind of more discursive side of it.
Vim: Yeah, and it also looked like what's the value that you get from those different lengths as well?
Tim: Yeah, I mean there's a whole thing about value in terms of like actually also about like that there's money and podcasts now [00:08:00] apparently serious money.
No. No, I should emphasize that we're not like that's not why we're doing it. And in fact, there is no money and it costs me a small amount of money every month to do this very small amount of money every month, but. It's more in time actually, but like there are people who are making kind of businesses out of streams of podcasts and podcasting sites and tools and there's a whole Industries coming up and I think the well again, you kind of need to listen to the conversation with Vic.
But I but it I think part of it is to do with how alienated we are from. The over-polished over produced media that use the glossy stuff you see on TV
Vim: so I find it really interesting how podcast go viral now in the same way that other media does so Serial for example. Was one that kind of really took off and everyone was talking about it at one point and [00:09:00] it's that thing of it has become this new form of media and entertainment that we just didn't have before but then my question actually is it any different to albums and music and just listening to two things.
Tim: Yeah, is it different from albums? I think yes that one of the things again we talked about Vic was this this the cycle that it's every couple of weeks or it's every week or you know in some of the short ones it's every day that that cycle that repetitiveness means that it's it's more like. Radio in that sense that it's a show you listen to the content may be more kind of like listening to to an album.
They know kind of 45 minutes, whatever but
Tim: But that regularity and the expectation that it will be out at this point. It's different somehow and then the fact that you know that it'll be there for your [00:10:00] commute might for example.
Vim: Yeah, but also the relationships you build with the people that you're listening to so you start to build this kind of oh, I know what they're kind of position on different things are and I know that.
They'll either challenge or agree with some of the things I'm saying. Well, I respect their opinion on different things. I think that's really interesting too. There are certain podcast podcast as well. And I I totally know them and it's actually no I really don't
Tim: that that's that's very I mean, I know that I've had a very small I mean presumably you have as well had a very small slice of that one-way relationship where people think they know you like, you know, I've got a couple of YouTube things in very sort of geeky world, but.
In that world people think they know me because they've seen a couple of
Tim: of YouTube's and they'll come up and greet me as if I'm a friend and I'm like I'm going okay. I'm getting older and I do forget people's faces, but right really it's like who the hell are you? You know and and I it's very confusing that just people [00:11:00] just assume that they you know, and they assume that you are you're onstage Persona as well, which is kind of tricky because you aren't always that's hard work, you know.
Vim: Yeah, yeah. Definitely. I'm really looking forward to listening to this one may need to hear what we're doing wrong.
Tim: yeah. Yeah. Well, I better leave some mistakes in then hadn't I!
Vic Elizabeth: So my name. Vic Elizabeth Turnbull and I am a podcast producer I make podcasts for people. I'm also a fundraising and marketing consultant for good causes and I also this list is going to go on and on I also run a networking event for podcasters called Mic in Manchester brackets for now and I am the
director of a music independent music website called Silent radio in [00:12:00] Manchester as well
Tim: cool. Cool. So I mean just picking up on one of those things for the moment microphones are something that we all obsess about in the podcast world. Do you think that's really necessary or do you. Like we could just relax and use smart phones and start worrying about it.
Vic Elizabeth: I think for me it's all about how you use it. So if there was a podcaster looking at me right now or professional if those are professional audio producer or someone that's worked in the audio industry for a long time looking at me right now where I'm sat. What I'm doing, I am not doing anything
right. Right now, I'm holding a snowball microphone with no no pop filter on it next to a window. I'm doing things all wrong. I think how you use it is is equally as important as getting a good microphone because at the end of the day you do get you do get [00:13:00] what you pay for, but you can make. Not so you can make cheap microphone microphone sound good and I think what you saying about mobile phones.
I just bought myself a likkle like a little microphone that I plug in support of my phone and it was 8 pounds and that's just enhance. I've already got and for 8 pounds. I think that's I think that I think that's all right. You have to spend loads of money on it. I don't think
Tim: right right. I mean, I think that's that's that's just sort of certainly the conclusion that we're coming to is that that a lot of the consumer electronics and particularly the smartphone's over the last few years.
The microphones have just got so much better that you know used to be that if you try to record something on your old Nokia or whatever. It sounded like it was down the end of a loo roll.
Vic Elizabeth: Yeah,
Tim: but now, you know, they really do seem to be much much better. So I mean, although a lot of us will still kind of [00:14:00] get try and get hold of a decent microphone and try and use it.
It's not actually I mean it's about a Content obviously and I think that's the thing that. We sort of sometimes Miss. Is that like it really matters what what you're talking about rather than like necessarily how you recorded it. So what kind of content you finding engaging? I've lost you have I?
Vic Elizabeth: High
Tim: Hi, don't know what happened there.
Vic Elizabeth: I'll tell you what happened and it will link to the previous question. So. I think podcasters get that. The The Surge of DIY podcasters is is amazing and fantastic and a lot of them are self-taught and if there's ever a problem with your microphone, it's not the microphones fault. It's probably the cable and the cable of popped out.
Tim: Right? Right, right. Absolutely.
Vic Elizabeth: I help good causes raise money and Market their Market their Wares.
Tim: So what do you think about is there about podcasting that kind of is [00:15:00] uniquely good for good causes. Why does it kind of helped them specifically?
Vic Elizabeth: Because there's a few reasons that has the local is relatively low-cost doing a bit of research at the minute about what would causes spend marketing budgets on and what they think is important when it comes to marketing and I spoke to a few people who either are not not clued up when it comes to marketing and good causes or are concentrating efforts on.
High price methods with little impact. So for example finding paper newsletters out to hundreds of people at 70% support and whereby a podcast could be a better use of resources to tell their stories. So the low-cost thing is massive because obviously, you know, a lot of Charities and social Enterprises don't have bucket loads of money number two, is that what podcasting is such a personable () person can't say this () [00:16:00] personal medium that can convey and conjure up
Imagination to help help supplement narratives, it's very rarely that you will sit and listen to a podcast with someone else so that opportunity to get into someones ears and to get your story directed to someone's is really exciting and filled with so many opportunities to exploit and thirdly podcasting is great.
Is a great is a great tool to suck loads of other content out of it. So you could make a podcast episode and create a blog for the transcript or create an audiogram for social media or create quotes that you can put on social media as well. So the possibilities are endless and. I'm so excited to start working with good causes on podcasting.
Tim: So just picking one thing out of that like audiograms all what what what [00:17:00] what would you put in an audiogram and well, maybe tell me what they are. I'm guessing that let me see. I probably got it wrong.
Vic Elizabeth: So an audiogram is a way to share visually share a podcast. A bit of a podcast or a chunk of the podcasts, whereby it's a still image or it can be a moving image actually a video where you hear a bit of the podcasters and audio and then there's a animation of a wave like the the sound wave, you know what I mean,
Tim: right so but the picture isn't necessarily conveying a great deal about the content.
It's just like kind of eye candy a bit. It could be.
Vic Elizabeth: I mean, it could be the cover art. It could be the person speaking but it's just a way to because take for example Facebook. It's hard to put audio just audio on Facebook. You need you need you can't just upload it straight onto the timeline. You have to have it as a video.
So it's a good audiograms real good [00:18:00] way to visually represent your podcast.
Tim: So like a charity might put this on their Facebook page as like the item of the day or something.
Vic Elizabeth: Yeah, so they they pick a quote out of it. So let's say for example, I'm working with a cancer research charity and there's a quote from their podcast about how much this charity has changed the beneficiaries life so I can pick that quote out.
Making it into an audiogram and almost try and pick out the virally virally content the shareable content so that in that can then. Get shared, you know, I mean, so it's a really it's a really meaty bit of the podcast that can back out so it becomes shareable for that good cause
Tim: right I'm always like that idea about putting in like the viral thing and using it as a hook to get people to listen to the podcast.
I'm always nervous about [00:19:00] to what extent your kind of devaluing the podcast itself because you've taken the the chunky piece of like, you know, the real good piece out of it. And then when people actually do round come around to listening to it, it's like they've kind of they've heard the best fit already.
So it's a sort of slight let down when they listen to the rest of it it how do you balance that risk
Vic Elizabeth: I don't know why that's a really good question. And I don't know the answer to it. I think you just have to trust your editing and audio knowledge and knowledge of marketing to. Not like as a film producer, you wouldn't release all the good bits of a trailer and these audiograms are like trailers they are the hooks to get you wanting to listen to more see wouldn't put the conclusion of a story on on an audiogram and wouldn't you know where you want to put the punchline to a joke on an audiogram?
You you tease it I think
Tim: right right. So the trick is to is enough of a tease, but not like all of it interesting. I'm yeah. No, [00:20:00] that's good. I haven't perfected that. It with this one, but maybe we'll work on it. So you would say how you were saying how intimate like personal podcasts are
this is one of the things I wanted to talk about like. People are wearing headphones to listen to podcasts a lot. But you got any sense of how much of that and how much is listen to the listen to on things like a lexer and and you know on on Smart speakers you got a sense of the mix.
Vic Elizabeth: I'm gonna take it from my personal stats on my podcast and not not many people are listening to my personal podcasts on Smart speakers, I think it's what's interesting with smart speakers.
Especially Alexa is the introduction of skills. And I think this is where Alexa starting to set itself is a [00:21:00] bit of a market leader in short form podcasts. So for example, are you aware of the smart Alexa skills?
Tim: Well little bit like a read about them, but not done anything with them. So maybe talk me through.
Vic Elizabeth: So I've not got an Alexa. I got a Google home and it's you can probably there's a little bit of programming to do not just upset up on your on your Alexa home Alexa app. If you can sort of tell your Alexa to play certain things every morning and she learned skills and these certain things are just short form audio content pieces, and it could be the news.
It could be the news it could be, you know, your daily horoscopes friend of mine colleague of mine does everyday positivity. So 3 to 4 minutes a daily, "right, you've got this you're amazing" and and she's now getting you [00:22:00] know thousands of listeners. She launched in July and getting thousands and thousands and thousands more per week engaging into this really short form personalized briefing.
So. Because it's quite early doors in that as well. I think there's there's there's some exciting things happening as well beyond beyond news as well,
Tim: right? You know, I mean, I think I think short form is is super interesting. I've not mean how short is short form to your mind
Vic Elizabeth: so I on my home.
I've not got the Alexa I have Google home. I've got a BBC briefing that's 30 seconds in the morning. So I say I'm not going to say it now because she'll go off but when I ask her for the news that's 30 seconds or there's a monocle one and monocle news one. That's 15 minutes. So yeah, it can be anything I think and I think thirty seconds is that it's a least as I could it's like it's almost like the bulitins you get on radio four every every hour.
Tim: Right, right. [00:23:00] So it's real kind of crisp. I mean, I actually subscribed to a couple of those here. In Berlin gives me the right. No, I think it's I think it's two minutes of some kind of news and one of them will be like on this day. You know Albert Einstein was born or whatever but they're and then they'll be some local news about like the transport strike or new buses or whatever.
So it's kind of funny mix of historical stuff and. Like really hyper local news
Vic Elizabeth: I think is fascinating how we've almost come full circle in our media consumption. Where just a couple of years ago. We switched on the Telly and watch the news and now we're going back to you know, almost switching on the wireless making a breakfast and getting the kids ready for school.
I always find that fascinating how we've come back to audio in it's in it's such a simple form of entertainment. I like is quite primitive in a way and I really I really like that about podcasts.
[00:24:00] Tim: Yeah, no, definitely I mean a but I think what we're sort of starting to hear from this conversation is that there's almost some segmentation in that there's a group of things that you listen to that are probably shorter that you listen to on on Smart speakers in the kitchen quite often.
I mean, that's a huge generalization but like, you know, The news quickly in the kitchen whilst you doing things around because your hands-free like you don't have to look at it. You can still make the toast and whatever but you can hear it and get kind of customized your audio experience that you want and then you've got the long form which I kind of mentally think of as being for listening to on the commute now, I don't know if act like if that ties in with your experience, but like that's how I tend to consume my my longer form podcasts
Vic Elizabeth: So I've been doing some research because I'm starting up in the post of my list a start-up for my social Enterprise and been doing a lot of research and sort of [00:25:00] demo workshops on introductions to podcasting and get in a sense of why people don't listen to podcasts and know they haven't got the time. We'll move onto this in about actually how about this time and they don't know where to find them but asking people who do listen to podcasts where they listen to them.
And it's those things where it's those situations where you don't have to concentrate too much so the cooking the cleaning which is a big one and in the car and on the commute, but I'm not really got a sense of when what what content is that that's interesting. What content is best suited to what situation I mean take for example myself.
I listen to a mix between in the morning a professional personal development podcast or a bird watching podcast just [00:26:00] because it relaxes me in the morning. It's brilliant and then I saved the murder and the True Crime. To when I'm cooking my tea oh, and I save the language learning to when I'm cleaning the house.
So it's interested in psychology of listening habits. And when people listen to certain things, I think learning as well a friend of mine were talking about it yesterday about the learning element of podcasts and how how we listen to a lot of things to learn something new, but listen to stuff that we would have never listen to me before so, you know, the bird watching podcast would never ever be interested in picking up a bird-watching book or watching a program about bird-watching but because it's in podcast form, I find it easier to maybe digest or switch off
Tim: Right? I think that's kind of touching on one of the things that that's magic about podcasters that it's very much in your time.
So you get to choose. Wilson When and then if [00:27:00] you're like you don't have to see it through to the end like if you something happens and you want to pause it and or you just get bored with it, that's just fine. Like it's totally under your control and I think that's yeah that for me. That's the really attractive I get to mix the stuff I want and you know.
Like you say you have this kind of weird assembly of your own radio program in the morning essentially. Like these are the seven things. I need to get me going in the morning. And I think that's great like that mix is really really fun. But it's the to do with the fact that it's your choice and
Vic Elizabeth: that's really the extension of it being personal personal as well.
So, I think it's not only a personal listen experience. It's a personal sort. I a la carte menu of content that you've chosen is. It's Radio On Demand, isn't it? It's the radio that you want to listen to on demand. Thank
Tim: ya now so that's interesting like how apart from that the scheduling aspect [00:28:00] what other differences do you see from what we might call a professional radio.
I feel like there are some but I don't really know what they are.
Vic Elizabeth: Yeah, and. I've tried a lot to try and I've tried different ways of the past six months to train think how I describe podcasts to people and I'm still working on it and but the one that I the one that I use often late sort of like your your radio your own on-demand radio, I think the differences that you know, obvious one
is the music and if you're used to listening to a savior used to listen to a BBC Radio 1 or a BBC 6 music then that the comparison that it's just like radio is a bit is a is not that relevant. But if you're sort of like a BBC 5 live BBC Radio 4 just sort of talk based radio listener, then that that comparison is more relevant
I have I [00:29:00] hadn't thought of that because I've been like, you know, Yeah, yeah, you know totally the music thing is well with very few exceptions is basically missing from podcast. That's not what it does
Vic Elizabeth: no and because you could because it's not worth the bother either trying to trying to get the licenses to play music and whatnot.
Another difference is the professionalism. I think we are so used to listening to. Podcasts that have been made in a real DIY style that we forgive more easily the pops in sound or the cutouts in sound or the dodgy edits or and I think that's a big difference as well. And that's allowing. You know, this wave of DIY podcast has to come through more easily because it's accessible.
Tim: So do you think you can have a podcast that's too polished but it's like, you know in somehow unauthentic because it's been [00:30:00] edited perfectly.
Vic Elizabeth: Mmm. I probably, I don't know. I think you might be asking the wrong person that because I do switch off podcast that aren't made very well.
Vic Elizabeth: I do like a good I do like a well produce podcasts.
I almost like a well produce podcasts. Podcast that is done by someone that's not part of a audio production company or a BBC. I appreciate the people who are not professionals can make good audio and this is what my drive is at. The minute is to help people professionalize themselves in really easy ways.
Tim: Right, right. That's true. Let's start at the beginning of that maybe like so you're talking about a charity or somebody starting a podcast. One of the things that I've noticed is that the name is really difficult and it's not like it's not obvious. It's not like picking. Well, even that's not obvious, but it's not like picking a domain name.
The [00:31:00] rules are different like you've got any thoughts about how you pick a podcast name and how you you know how you did it go through that thought process and I'm not expecting you to give away your consultancy for free but like a few hints might be good
Vic Elizabeth: A really good point and my my number one tip is to our UK listeners will know the term to do what it says on the tin to "Ronseal it".
don't be going all ambiguous and cryptic. I think that's the biggest tip is just if it's you know, My podcast is called tourist and it's a tourist guide just the travel guide and it does what it says on the tin. Don't be. Yeah, that's that's my number one tip on name and a podcast.
Tim: I had a little experience the other day.
There's a podcast that I really like called Lingthusiasm which is about this too is very enthusiastic people who are interested in linguistics. And it's lovely podcast but there is no way that [00:32:00] you can get Google home or Alexa to play it because you simply can't it's not a pronounced word. And so they don't recognize it.
Vic Elizabeth: That's a really good point. Actually Tim is about discovery on on on advancing technology. My I've learned the hard way with actually with my podcast tourist because it's such a common. Word that's in a lot of podcasts titles. So I was fretting that my podcast. I was testing it every week to see if Google of pick it up yet pick it up yet.
It's finally picking it up because I've changed the name from tourist for Tourist podcast the put the word podcast in there and you've always got be checking Discovery or not every different platform new platform. I think that's key as well with producing a podcast you really need to think about discovery.
Tim: Yeah, that's something I need to learn about. I need to come to one of you or your meet up some trying to try and do some some some proper [00:33:00] thinking about Discovery. So we're like What do you think people are? Doing that's kind of a bit different and what have you seen that's kind of the exactly off the wall, but slightly kind of left field in the podcast world.
Where are we going? I suppose it's also a question there
Vic Elizabeth: So where we going. I'll pick on that where we going. I don't I'm sort of my world's podcast. Now. I'm glad it's like I'm in this little podcast bubble and there is huge amounts of money now being pumped into podcasting. So, I don't know if you're aware that earlier this year in for just last month Spotify is a music streaming platform, but two relatively new ish podcast startup companies for 300 million pounds and they've just recently acquired another one as well.
So they bought Gimlet which produce. The most awesome podcast. I've got such a little love for Gimlet [00:34:00] and they also bought Anchor which is a really simple way to produce podcasts on your phone. So they're really stepping into that. They Spotify really wanting to make their name in the broadcasting world.
So I think that's really interesting once when stuff like that happens in Industry, you know that things are starting to starting to happen. And also this have you heard of a new platform called Luminary.
Tim: I think they showed up in my logs actually. Yes, but go on
Vic Elizabeth: they've raised something like something stupid like 60 million pounds in Investments and they are offering a sort of Netflix model.
It's a subscription model, whereby you pay a certain amount every month and get access to exclusive podcasts. The people like Trevor Noah. They have signed him up to do podcasts. So that's again. We're now talking about payment for podcasts which. Is is a shift in people's [00:35:00] behavior towards podcasting.
Tim: Yeah, I mean, I think that's that's also super interesting about what the like the financing and we know that you we you said at the beginning that cheap to do. They relatively cheap to do. I mean, it depends a bit on on exactly how much time you put into to each one. But and that is the major cost in my experience like the actual the equipment you need and whatever is relatively cheap, but the time you need to produce.
a podcast and edit it down and whatever and publicize this is a massive
Vic Elizabeth: Tell me about it, it's huge.
Tim: but so like they're relatively cheaper to produce but then if you're looking at the revenue side of and I guess you would talking for the Charities you were talking about basically boosting donations would be there like the end end of that.
It's a Mark. It's a pure marketing goal there then you see if I'm right you see some of them doing advertizing either of other podcasts or [00:36:00] product and now you're seeing a subscription model as well. I hear if that right?
Vic Elizabeth: Yes, and then also branded podcasts as well . So stop organisations not necessarily having Ad slots.
And so it can you hear my cat meowing? It's just come in all guns blazing.
Tim: It's fine.
Vic Elizabeth: Okay, and not necessarily having ad spots in the in the podcast for having
Vic Elizabeth: actually a branded branded podcast. So for example Lyft have a podcast about about taxi drivers going to follow their dreams or something and L'Oreal have a podcast called the happy like the happy place Positive Thinking podcast, and they're not.
necessarily is not necessarily A really blatant sponsorship. It's quite subtle. And I think that's really interesting as well. Almost like a sly product placement or something like that.
Tim: Right, so they using the brand as a theme and then hanging [00:37:00] stories off it.
Vic Elizabeth: Absolutely. Yes. Yeah, they're doing that.
Tim: That's interesting. Yeah, that's it. That's a fun. And do you think so you said a little while back that podcasts are in a bubble or did you think that's a bubble? It's going to burst and what's it going to look like afterwards if it is?
Vic Elizabeth: Oh. I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I'm I'm hoping that this.
bubble doesn't burst because I'm planning my whole business around it. So for selfish reasons, I hope this bubble continues to grow but we see what the BBC a shape that whole new BBC sounds around this a la carte content on demand model. I don't I'm again for selfish reasons. I don't think it's going to burst soon.
Tim: Right, right. You think it's got a ways to go and it may stabilize hopefully that would be fun.
Vic Elizabeth: I think so and and also, I mean another interesting thing if we're talking [00:38:00] about the future of podcasting is I read an article recently that there's an organization called wondering podcast production called Wonder either the people behind dirty John and dr.
Death and they're not now accepting. Or thinking about producing any new podcasts unless it's got legs to be multi-platform. So for example, dirty John was a successful podcast about a and not so nice bloke which has now been made into a documentary a TV documentary and also a drama as well on Netflix, which is
Tim: oh wow, so excited that they're essentially a lead into other media.
Vic Elizabeth: Then there are they are a pipe line into into TV wonder--i are becoming that so some gimlet podcast of be made into Amazon Prime programs so that I [00:39:00] find that really really interesting.
Tim: No, I didn't totally unaware that that's that phenomena and that's that's fascinating. I mean it, you know, you can see that it might happen.
I don't know if you've listened to it. But like the whole Welcome to Night Vale experience is fascinating in that respect because they basically branched out into live shows.
Vic Elizabeth: Yeah,
Tim: and so that's kind of that's fun and that tracks me back to the other thing that you kind of also to BBC sound the thing I'm struggling with with BBC sound.
Is that the incessant. Repetition of their other media like the beginning the first two minutes of any BBC sound thing is talking about stuff. I don't want to know about that I've only been told three times today already. Like it just drives me mad. I'm almost at the point where I'm like not doing it because I'm just going to get too annoyed by being told about you know, the whatever it is that the you know, the latest thing they're trying to push
Vic Elizabeth: now.
Do you think that's [00:40:00] that's I mean, that's what am I trying to say? Do you think that's because they feel a little bit BBC's feeling threatened the say is what they were were the big players in podcast for a long long time the UK, but. We see it because of the yeah, the surge in podcasting popularity that there's more there's more variety now for English UK listeners than just the BBC podcast.
Tim: Yeah. I think it's also that I mean this is always the problem that I think we all find is understanding how Discovery works and I think that they're feeling is that they've got an audience they need to kind of capture more of that audiences time and I think that's a logic.
Vic Elizabeth: Which I've just remembered is that said Google finally launched their own pod casting platform last year and the BBC have blocked all all of their content to be found on Google podcast.
Tim: Yeah wasn't there something with Google [00:41:00] podcasts only doing only accepting US based podcast initially.
Vic Elizabeth: That's that's Google music Google Play look as good as Google music that was doing.
Vic Elizabeth: Google Podcast is now a new platform that launched I think it was last summer and it's interesting because I'm skipping around this conversation.
Sorry, but it's interesting that Google just started to get into the podcast in just developed this platform and iTunes is still the favorite way to discover podcast, especially with people got an iPhone because of the Native app that's on there, but it's not very good. I don't know what it was.
How do you listen to podcast Tim?
Tim: Oh, yeah, I if I'm on the move it tends to be iTunes. But but Discovery is is it's rarely through iTunes. I don't think I've accepted a single recommendation for iTunes.
Vic Elizabeth: Yeah,
Tim: it's almost always word-of-mouth. Actually people say to me. Hey, [00:42:00] this is a good podcast or yeah that and you know and their mind that and a very actually very little of it is from other podcasts.
If I click this this whole thing of podcasts introducing other podcasts, I it really doesn't work for me now, maybe an exceptional but it just doesn't like it just grates, you know, because
Vic Elizabeth: yeah,
Tim: it's sort of plays against what we were saying earlier about me being in control of what I listen to when like suddenly I get two minutes of something.
I didn't choose. I'm not really you know, that grates against the kind of logic of this. I think yeah
Vic Elizabeth: interesting because I have done that. I have found some podcasts that I like through through the plug and the plugs that well the plugs. I had of been packed podcasts on the same network or the same production company.
I'm not a fan of the of the half an hour long trailer for a new podcast on [00:43:00] a podcast. I'm listening to but a little a little trailer. I don't mind. I have a have taken that step to listen to a podcast from that.
Tim: So in terms of placement where we do think that that would be like at the beginning or at the end or a little interval in the Middle.
Where would you put that that that teaser for a different podcast?
Vic Elizabeth: So I think I've read in terms of advertising on podcasts, which I have not explored too much is that the sweet, The Money spot is the beginning and then the next is the mid-roll with the middle of it. And I think the end is is I think you switch off don't you at the end.
I think I listened to a few recently and said, oh stay tuned to the end and we've got a preview of blah'd'blah's podcast. I think the beginning is probably where it should sit but it wouldn't really fit.
Tim: And what about organically working into the conversation like the old sponsored by things used to do on TV?
Vic Elizabeth: Yeah, they [00:44:00] decided talking ads as well as net people. I think people trust you to trust the house to talk through an advert rather than an advert placement.
Tim: Right right interesting.
Vic Elizabeth: So if you're looking to my dad wrote a poem on. They do that very well as they'll this episode is brought to you by mattress, and we love matresses .
We yeah, we love much says this one's really fix my back and I think that it's almost like an endorsement of the broadcast, isn't it?
Tim: Right? Right, right. It's funny because a lot of this is actually sort of back to older styles of advertising and you know, how early radio was done if you look at like, you know, and I can call his radio was done quite like this.
It's in some ways.
Vic Elizabeth: It's what I was saying before about like it's going back to almost like a primitive. So we were going Full Circle event entertainment and media consumption and media styles as well. This is really interesting. And there's I mean, there's some there's some podcasts out there that don't do advertising [00:45:00] and rely on rely on other means of income to supplement to pay pay the production cost.
So "guilty feminist". Is that it's an English podcast about feminism and they they don't have advertising and how they make their money to cover their cost is live shows. So every podcast is alive showed ticketed,
Tim: right? Right. Right, right. I think that's that's that that whole model is also going to change a little more.
I mean, one of the things that I'm seeing coming up is or very interested in this is air pods. So and just the kind of ubiquitousness of people wearing headphones. Like almost all day. I think that's I'm not sure what that does to podcasting but something I'm not sure quite why but it feels like it's a change if you have you noticed that or is it not like showed up in your stats?
Vic Elizabeth: No. No. I've not know I have not even looked at that to any further.
Tim: Okay. I might I might try and [00:46:00] like find out some more about that. think the thing that's worth talking about is that what this podcast is doing is it is there is no financed for it at all Vim and I are doing it because we can and because it's interesting to do so, it's not like in a way it's atypical in that respect and to some extent I use it as like a
technology experimens as well, but it's really about trying to find out what's going on in the future and that that kind of self-motivation like we were just doing it because we can and because we want to rather than having a like a commercial reason is that I think that's still part of the ethos of podcast and what or am I wrong?
Vic Elizabeth: I think I think a lot of it is I advise people that if they go into podcasting to make money so that you know, they see Joe Rogan and they have ambitions to emulate the wealth of Joe Rogan is that don't go into it with the first and foremost thought in your head that you're going to be the [00:47:00] next Joe Rogan or you can be a millionaire.
It's a nice to have. But you probably not going to earn a living through podcasting and I don't want to sound like, you know, some people in the idea you might do but don't go in with the idea that you are going to I think the best thing to say and with that as well we talked about it before the time there's a lot of podcasters and and perfect example this going into one still broadcasting going right we'll do it weekly and
Is going to drop every week at the same time and then they get select the third with you like oh my goodness. I can't how what I'm not going to have a full time job really sort of manage manage your own expectations as well with that.
Tim: So actually that's something we really should talk about the regularity thing.
Am I right in thinking that that actually matters that that like, you know dropping at the same time every week or every two weeks or every day or whatever. It is really matters and that it's. People value [00:48:00] that or is it like just a delusion doesn't really matter exactly when you drop them.
Vic Elizabeth: I mean, I'm in both camps about this my my professional media.
Marketing side of me is like people expect people will expect if people listen to your podcast people expect it to drop on a certain day. So they are poised to listen. So for example, I listen I'm subscribed to a true a crime podcast called "they walk among us" and I'm subscribed to my I'm subscribed to another podcast called.
"I secretly recorded my boyfriend" both of those come on a Wednesday day.
Tim: Brilliant Idea
Vic Elizabeth: Hilarious, it's so funny and both of those come out in a Wednesday. So I know that when I'm making my tea on a Wednesday night, I'm listening to "they walk among us" and then maybe on a Thursday morning or Thursday afternoon.
Listen to my [00:49:00] Listen to " I secretly recorded my boyfriend" and if that if they didn't drop on a Wednesday, I'd be devastated.
Tim: Right, right, as we I mean what we've been trying to do and what sort of settled into a bit of a rhythm is that we're doing every couple of weeks and it's typically drops on a on a Monday night or Tuesday morning depending on exactly when I finish the edit.
And that's sort of that's about as regular as I can make it because you say I've got a day job. I've got things have to happen and then likewise with Vim so we can't like always like do it to the minute. But but I mean do you think that's enough? What do you think we should like? It should be 9:05 on when on Sunday evening or whatever, you know.
Vic Elizabeth: No, I mean it if you put it up there. Actually, no, you know what you get that feels it depends on who where your where. Your listeners are when you're if you look at your stats, like if the majority of your listeners a British then if [00:50:00] you put it up there at three o'clock in the morning, no one's going to be no one's going to know if it's late, you know, I mean but saying that the regularity part of me is like it doesn't matter as long as you are as long as your regular and not leaving it two to three months.
Without an episode as long as you're keeping Communications open on your social media. That one's coming. You're not going quiet. You're keeping you keep your presence then I don't think it matters. If you're doing it every Wednesday every every Thursday, you know, I mean, I think the nature of podcasting allows you to be a little flexible in that but just as long as you keep in your listeners informed,
Tim: Right, right cool.
I've got so many more questions, but I think we probably put a better wrap it up there and thanks very much for putting up with some of the technical glitches that were in the middle of that but hopefully nobody will ever hear and and I'll try and get another try and get over to the Mic night one one [00:51:00] evening.
Vic Elizabeth: Yes.
Tim: I'm not in Manchester that often so it's not that easy, but we'll see how it plays out.
Vic Elizabeth: Absolutely. Well, I do want to try and. Make Mic International. So if there's an excuse for me to come to Berlin and do one then you know, yeah.
Tim: Yeah, definitely. Let me know I'll help you sort that out.
Vic Elizabeth: That'd be amazing and I will let you put the link to Mic on the show notes as well.
Tim: Okay? Brilliant thanks so much.
Vic Elizabeth: Thanks having me on speak to you soon. Bye.