[00:00:00] Vim: Hi, I'm Vimla. And I'm here today to talk about money with him.
Tim: Hi. Yeah, I'm Tim money is always fun to talk about whether you've got it or not.
Vim: Um, so what's really interesting is recently. I've as a young like mid-20. I felt lots of pressure to set up a pension. Um, and it's something that I've.
Literally never had never thought about before but feel all of this pressure to to think about the future of my own finances.
Tim: And did you feel like you've got like good advice because the money is or the future is really seems more opaque than it used to be. I think yeah specifically around pensions.
I think it used to be simpler, um back when I was thinking about these things.
Vim: Um, yeah, I agree. Well, I'm not that I've ever thought about before but uh [00:01:00] the advice I've gotten has been more word-of-mouth than kind of anything professional and even though there's the in the UK. There's the kind of automatic enrollment into a state pension.
I think there's a lot more awareness amongst people my age of what is that actually going to be enough? Um, Am I going to be able to have the same standard of life that my parents have as retired people when I retire and what does retirement even at like now kind of all of these things are kind of running through my mind at the moment.
Tim: Yeah. I mean that makes makes a lot of sense. I mean, I I um, I think particularly. Unless you happen to be still in one of those few situations where like the old pension rules apply. So if you're one of those people who you know had a job when they left school or left University and pretty much stayed in the same job or industry for the whole thing and put money [00:02:00] into a pension fund kind of almost not accidentally, but just as part of natural part of your employment.
And then come out at the end with a final salary of scheme, which is what everyone did until what 10 15 years ago, then like it was all sort of sorted for you. And you knew that you'd come out with a with a pension. That was I don't know whatever it was between a half and two-thirds of your have your final salary and that, you know, then you could plan for that because you kind of knew where you were going to be but um, But I think it's much more difficult now.
Tim: and I'm kind of not sure like I sort of the temptation to say something wild like hey, you know, maybe just buying a couple of Bitcoin would be smarter. Um, but but I mean and I think money particularly in the last few years my perception on this is probably not something you've [00:03:00] been as aware of.
But it used to be that you could actually buy putting savings into a bank. You could earn income like you could earn money from savings interest rates were not zero and at the moment there's simply no no point in putting money into into a bank like apart from just the safety of it. There's no there's no income from it.
Um, and that's that for me that's very difficult to kind of get my head around. Um, I used to used to do like have all of my risk in the business that I'm running on the or whatever, you know the consultancy I'm doing or whatever. So like all of my risk was in that and all of my money was like super safe boring sensible things done with it because I had the risk in the business.
Um, but there isn't anything super safe and sensible to do any more that I can think of.
Vim: No, I agree. And I think [00:04:00] um, a comparison can be made between investing in Bitcoin at the moment and probably the attitude towards buying stocks and shares in like the 80s. There's that same kind of ooh it's a risk, but I'm just going to do it anyway because nothing else will get me the return.
Tim: Right right, and I think also I mean to an extent that's true property. I mean. You know, we haven't seen properties those risky for a while. But it I mean in the past it has been um, you know, you can have like whole areas that just don't don't keep their value or don't have any value at the end.
Vim: Um, yeah,
Tim: so I think that's yeah. I mean, maybe it maybe it never was that there was anything completely safe. We just kind of deluded ourselves. I don't know. Um, but I think it's very I mean I difficult for you, um to like know how to plan [00:05:00] for. Well. What are we looking at? When you as a woman you get you'll get to retire 67 is it
Tim: I mean, that's another thing. That's the Assumption. There is along every T is going to. Continued or at least stay as it is. I don't think that's obvious either. Actually.
Vim: I also think with like retirement ages arbitrary and it takes but knowing my state retirement age as meant to be 68. Takes the humanity out of it.
It's kind of like why would what's going to incentivize me to keep working until 68 apart from the not having a pension. So maybe that's where that pressure comes from is I'm not gonna have any support from the state until that age. So I need to do something about it now so that I don't have to keep [00:06:00] working.
Tim: But I think I mean maybe this isn't true of everybody but I think there's a lot of people who simply don't have work patterns that look like that. You know that what you're actually going to do is in phases of your life. You're going to work, you know a lot of hours a month. Um another phases of your life, you're gonna work many hours the month because either you're older or you're looking after children or you're looking after your relatives or or hey, you're doing a project but you know a labor of love, you know a book or something and you're just actually not going to work for.
Those numbers of hours. I think I think the amount of there is a huge more flexibility in in that I mean, obviously the income is much riskier, but I don't think retirement looks this kind of stopping work on a Tuesday thing. I [00:07:00] don't. I mean even my dad who quit I mean, this is many years ago. He left the Civil Service at retirement age around for about a day and then went out and find him found himself through three consulting jobs, which took him four and half days a week.
And then after that he slowly filtered them out doing all more charitable stuff for just less and less. Until you know 15 years later. He was doing the odd day here and there but yeah, but that that curve of doing it as you feel capable. And as you feel motivated, I mean it's a luxury but um, yeah, but I think it's probably more representative of what we just more representative for how a lot of people work anyway now,
Vim: yeah, that's very true.
Yeah, I think that's interesting. It's it's not necessarily [00:08:00] the money side of it. It's more the working side of it.
Tim: And if I know we haven't even touched on the future of work, which I think is maybe another topic for some other time. But uh,
Tim: you know, yeah, I can't even picture it to be honest, but hopefully we find somebody who can help us with that.
I'll be cool actually.
Tim: So what you see is still mulling this over or you gonna like, you know, say I'm gonna buy a Beach Shack and retire to that or because I mean like just actually buy, buy property to retire to like, you know, an invest in that and so this is what I'm going to end up doing.
Vim: I haven't come to my conclusion yet. I still don't know what I should be doing. Well, even if there is what I should if there is a solution out [00:09:00] there, I think particularly for my generation. It's just almost just keep going until until it becomes a little bit clearer.
Tim: Right, right. I mean the thing that mitigates against that is that under normal circumstances.
The sooner you invest the less you have to put in because of the way that compound interest in theory works, but given the interest rates are you know? Almost zero that's like less of us deal these days. I guess I don't know is that I suppose we should probably say that like this is all just the two of us chatting vaguely and that anybody who's actually going to put any money into anything should get proper Finance financial advisors.
No definitely not no take my financial advice. Even if I was so there you go.
Vim: Yeah, absolutely. Dont listen to me. Um, but one interesting thing that I've noticed in my habits towards money recently as well [00:10:00] is um, but the kind of mons appeal of money management. I've kind of signed up that every new startup that does that type of thing.
Well not everyone but. Um, I've such an app called Plum which kind of monitors how when what you're spending on um and take savings out on your behalf and equally, um, I start up called Emma as well that does something similar so that kind of there's a lot of these tools out there now that try that use algorithms to track your spending on and how you're spending in the hope that you can make better informed decisions
Tim: and have you had any surprises from that has it told you anything you didn't kind of already know?
Vim: No, I mean the plan one has been interesting just on so it works and like it will take a few pounds out of your account every few days so that you work up a cumulative savings and that's been surprising to me [00:11:00] just by how I don't actually notice it affecting me. So there's a lot of kind of income there that I didn't realize they didn't need that I could be saving.
Tim: Right. It's kind of like the the coming in in the in the evening and putting your spare change in a pot. It's the same incremental every day a little bit type thing. Yeah, and I mean that's interesting. I mean, I haven't done I've done a couple of those sorts of things not nothing as detailed as that, but but certainly I think some of the um, you know, financial institutions are going to get a.
The run for their money from the from the newcomers in the terms of just the convenience and the and some of the added features of like being able to do things. I mean something as simple as when I spend money on one of my cards. I actually get an update on my phone just like instantly when if I if I you know, [00:12:00] if I do it particularly good for contactless, right?
So I do a contact payment. And I think I think on it much worse that it's actually on my phone within a second or two and
Vim: that's so helpful.
Tim: That's actually really good. So like, you know me, not and particularly with contactless. It's really easy to spend money that you weren't really paying attention to um, yeah, you know, what's that a four quid or is it 14 quid?
Probably not 14, you know, I mean,
Tim: So so I think that's that's that's been interesting that one and and um, and then some of the other kind of features around keeping track of when payments going out again on your phone being able to do that rather than having to dig through a filing cabinet to work it out as those sorts of things.
I think are very good. But on the other hand, I really like being able to ring up a bank every now and then and actually talk to somebody, you know. What can we do about this? Um, [00:13:00] yeah, and it would be a shame if we lost that.
Vim: Yeah, definitely. I also think one thing that's missing. I don't know if it exists already but the kind of next step of okay.
So this is everything I'm spending this algorithm knows that how much my bills are can it figure out it can it figure out if I could be making any more savings online like using. A compare the market type to tell me what I'm spending on and how has been given all of the information but not really told what it means or how to use it yet, right.
Tim: You mean in terms of like advising you to buy products from yeah in bulk or from a different vendor or yeah that for me that's kind of really the trouble with that is that you don't have to be. Either know whether they were being neutral or know that they weren't being here. Both of [00:14:00] those bother me.
Um, I think I I kind of I mean the banks have got into trouble with recommendations before with like yeah recommending insurance and stuff that you didn't actually need. Yeah, so I think that's a like. It's kind of like the thing with the with the DNA testing where where they can't tell you the conclusions.
They can tell you the basic facts and you can draw your own conclusions, or you can get medical advice, but they don't tell you yeah, like, you know what to do. And I think that's much better give you a give me the facts in the tools to draw the graphs and whatever and then. You know make your own informed decision.
I think yeah, is that much much kind of better way for it to work.
Vim: Yeah. That's very true.
Tim: If you got any of it, I mean, [00:15:00] these are show up on your phone or do ever do anything on your laptop like with
Vim: no, it's all phone based and one of them is even through just through Facebook Messenger,
Wow, that's actually that that's really interesting. Like amusing privacy problems there.
Vim: Um, I know what's what I found what I surprised myself and how quickly I just trusted it to work as well. Um, like it almost wasn't even a second thought it was okay. Yeah, that makes sense. And just did it and always until after it was like oh crap what have I done
Tim: but you try me you're not just trusting them.
You're trusting Facebook as well.
Vim: Yeah. Yeah exactly.
Tim: That's funny. I mean, you know an interesting like for me the the apps on the phones are doing second Factor authentication [00:16:00] for the second factor that I physically have that particular handset in my hand. It's not like. And that I remember the pin or whatever but um, it's interesting that that the phone is now becoming the very center of of certainly individual banking.
Um, yeah, that's a huge change.
Vim: Yeah. It is massive interesting.
Tim: I wonder wonder whether they've thought about all of the well, I'm sure they have. Oh, they thought about all the risks involved and they probably less than using the post which was the old.
Vim: Yeah. Yeah, definitely. Yeah, that's
I must should spend some time looking at these apps and some other apps of than the ones I've already done too.
Vim: Yeah. I mean, there's so many out there. I went. Um, I was in London last week and almost every other. Poster on the tube is [00:17:00] about money management apps or investment apps or kind of free trials for portfolio management for future Investments and all of this stuff.
So there's a big kind of movement to personal money management.
Tim: Yeah. Yeah. That's really not true here in Berlin. That's uh, but they were at an event the other night and they were laughing about how the the only thing that happens in Britain is Money Management now.
Vim: Yes true. Nathan Point. What?
Tim: Why was I in Berlin? Well, you know because she's gonna go make things that aren't the recent just like moving money around.
Tim: but yeah interesting. Um, but that London is really turning into the capital. I mean, I think there are things to do that but as usual with these sorts of cycles that probably kind of only a subset of those apps are actually going to survive and do [00:18:00] useful things in the longer term, but that's that's how things move forward I suppose.
Tim: Cool. Should we leave that there and then yeah, that sounds and we'll uh, we'll listen to some more conversation about money with Tyson a bit
Vim: Sounds good.
Tim: Okay, speak to you again.
Yeah, so we thought we'd talk about the future of money. And then and what that means I'm not quite sure. I'm not even sure what money is but maybe you could start out by introducing yourself and maybe saying little about you know, what you think money is
Tyson: sure and so my name's Tyson Appadoo.
Um, I um have worked in the finance industry for the last call it 12 years. Um been involved in investment investment Banks to to hedge funds and have always been involved in the whole [00:19:00] finance arena my degrees in economics. So I have a good idea about the Dynamics at play when it comes to how money controls the world and how the flow of money dictates a lot of what is.
Going on in terms of how it defines how defines people whose attitudes and perspectives and needs and wants etcetera etcetera. Um, so when I think about money I think about it as intermediary between between supply and demand so I exchange a form of money or form of payment. Just something that I deem necessary utility that provides a use for me.
Um and the person or the company or whatever. It might be who [00:20:00] provides such utility puts a cost on on what they're providing and they receive that payment and then they're able to use that payment in kind for something else that they find useful, um in essence it. Essentially a way to make the bartering system more efficient and also it is a way for people on an individual level to assign a value to their time.
That's how I think about it.
Tim: Okay, cool. That's quite. Um, I'm not an economist but uh, but if I remember rightly, that's that's quite a Mercantilist view of money in the sense that they'd like. It represents a thing it is it standing in for bartered goods or time or some other kind of tangible thing.
Whereas, I mean, I think the whole other category of money that's that's actually much more, [00:21:00] um, intangible much more virtual. And um, maybe we'll come on to that a little more. But so so in terms of like we sort of know roughly where we are with money maybe now, but what do you think the future holds?
I mean we talked one of the previous talks with somebody was somebody something about um, blockchain and. The whole of potential things like Bitcoin. Um, do you think that's the direction when you just going to go in or is it going to be we're gonna go back to the gold standard and actually have a physical, you know thing that's worth something or
Tyson: I think both options are a distinct possibility.
Um, if I knew the answer to that question, I I'd be a very rich man if I'm perfectly honest because I don't think we have a clear and concise. direction of travel here when it comes to the future of money and I think that that's the most concerning thing. I'm going back to a point that you [00:22:00] made that you know, we know what money is now and I don't think that's necessarily the case don't think that that money as a concept is widely understood.
I think if you went to the average person Street and asked to define what money is they would struggle with that. Um, Money think about bank for example doesn't actually really hold any tangible value. It is the notice itself is not that doesn't have the value is the promise that made on the back of the note knowledge that you can exchange that banknote for something else with somebody else in the future.
Um that has the value the actual coin natural note is not. Something that is tangible, which is again relating back to the point that you were making before. Um, and I think that when it comes to the future of money [00:23:00] what we have to understand is ultimately the central banks and the government are dictating the direction of travel.
And what are they wanting to achieve? What do they want to achieve when it comes to the future of money? Um now we've been through a financial crisis where. We've seen central banks around the world reduce interest rates in an attempt to create inflation and get people spending their money the basic premise is that if you're earning no interest in your bank account, then you're better off taking that money out and going spending it which will increase inflation which will increase spending which increase consumer confidence eventually jobs, and then you get self self fulfilling.
Impact on the economy that it starts to grow up the build itself back up again. Um, now what we actually had was central banks in certain parts of the world went [00:24:00] negative with their interest rates insofar as it cost you money to keep money at the bank. So imagine a world where you weren't able to take out physical money from the bank.
Pure digitalization of money as we know it today that would mean that unless you went out and spent money you would in essence be getting poorer and poorer by the day because your wealth would be eroded away. Um, and it has been argued that this could be a way for central banks to um influence the economy in a way that favorable to them by removing the tangible nature of money.
So removing the actual physical side money. Now, we saw it during the financial crisis when people were queuing outside Northern Rock. [00:25:00] That cash out of the bank and most likely going to open a bank account somewhere else or to hoard it under their mattresses some people do now if there was no way of doing that if there was another run on the bank if there was another systemic crisis.
Physical money how would the average consumer be able to take control of their wealth? That's a very interesting question very and one that I don't think has a good answer for
Tim: I think we can. We can kind of start to see some of the hints of that by by what happened in I mean, I think the Greek crisis is particularly interesting in that respecting that I I think in terms of developed economies, they went further down that line than anybody else has and and and what's more there was a decoupling of what the Central Bank wanted from what the government wanted and that I think was really [00:26:00] interesting.
Um kind of image of what might happen in the future when you actually get the the motivation of the Central Bank being unaligned from the motivation of the government and you start getting the threat in their case of a shadow currency. That was a government-issued. Um tax I mean, they never got this far but there was there was talk of them doing it a tax based currency where you know, your future tax was was kept in an account and you could spend it on other you could transfer to other people so they could pay their tax and this kind of like it was a pure Shadow economy.
They never got around to doing it fascinating thing in Varoufakis 's book about how they planned to do this and the. I don't think the European Central Bank were so keen on that idea so like that. I think that you I'm slightly diverting the issue here. But but I felt I feel that it's not inevitable the central bank and the government are totally [00:27:00] aligned as I think what I'm trying to say, though.
Tyson: I agree with that. I definitely agree with that and leave the should they be the government should be looking out for the welfare of its citizens. Whereas the central bank is largely concerned with the welfare of the economy. So I would expect some tension between the two. Best your point on Greece's yeah, very apt and very interesting the other the one that I thought you were going to mention was.
Um, because India where they've gone through a de-monetization process, um, which was which was predicated around the Need For Less fraudulent activity within the creation of money and the printing of money space. Um, But also so they can track track things a lot better and if everything's going through the system, um, but that's [00:28:00] country where no number of people who actually have access to bank accounts.
It's very very low. Um, so I find it easier to think about it more in relation to you know, where we are now or the Western world where. Um, where most people do have bank accounts and and very little people very few people now actually transact in physical money anymore, you know, you go into a shop and you can use contactless and use your card and people don't have the concept.
A physical cash.
Tim: I mean you spend over a hundred quid in physical cash, you get odd looks people that kind of you know, how come he's carrying 200 creating cash and you certainly couldn't I think he'd be tried to buy a car in cash. Like, you know couple thousand quid's worth the car you get some fairly odd looks unless the seller that asked for that.
Tyson: Yeah quite far from down that line already, I think. Yes true. And and [00:29:00] I I had a building worked on the house a few years ago and I was paying cash for that and every time I went into the bank to withdraw my own money, I got met with a barrage of security questions about what I was going to do for money and to think that that's your own money.
That's your earned money. Is that a necessary? Um precaution to take over this is under the guise of antimony laundering and um use of funds for Crime, which I understand that banks have to have to the first line of protection against when it comes to that type of thing. But at the same time the individuals, um right to spend and use their own money as their which is is surely of paramount importance when it comes to that debate,
Tim: I think given that the money is backed by I mean in the end all of this money is backed [00:30:00] by either the government in the case of traditional money or in theory mathematics in the case of things like Bitcoin, then then the system that's doing the backing has some say I think legitimately has some say.
How it can be like what's legitimate transactions is part of the um of the kind of game import into by putting your your uh value into that particular system. I mean particular watching this very interested in some of the more Baroque, uh, Bitcoin like structures where where the transactions are actually you know what is a legitimate transaction is actually part of the coin.
So, you know how you how you transact it is is written into the coin and you actually can't do things with it that aren't what it's supposed to be doing. Um, you know, the contract is effectively part of the coinage which is how that [00:31:00] plays out. I mean I. The trouble is that it's like all these legal things that by the time you dig down into it.
Actually, you know, the definition of what's the right kind of transaction turns out to be not mathematical but social which I think makes it even more tricky. So, how do you I mean, how do you feel from from your Viewpoint? How do you feel about some of these new money? Um, Kind of the foot the digitalization of money and the pure um, pure electronic money's system.
Do you think weakens or strong strengthens the the kind of trust in that infrastructure?
Tyson: I think um, first of all Innovation I think is excellent in every space and it's the first time that we've seen serious Innovation within the monetary space and you know mixing it with technology and I think that's.
That's a brilliant thing to have happened My worry is that it lowers the confidence in [00:32:00] the overall, um in the overall system. So now we do have for example Bitcoin and all of the other cryptocurrencies. Where people are well the majority of the transactions from what I understand our on a trading basis, I speculators trying to trying to make money from the volatility in the price action around these but um how tangible are the solutions to provide a future.
Um Network that can be actually used and maintained. That's the hard part. So for example, if I started a new job tomorrow and I say I don't want to be paid in pound sterling. I want to be paid in Bitcoin. How can that actually [00:33:00] work at the moment you get your wages if you pay get paid directly into a bank account.
Can I create a wallet and at what rate would they have to trans with the firm. I'm working for have to um transfer my pounds into Bitcoin on an ongoing basis. Is there a way to hedge that I I'm just not so sure that that yet the answers of come come to fruition. I mean I read yesterday about a refugee camp where.
Um all transactions are a Bitcoin where the I think it's the world food programme assign Bitcoin or a cryptocurrency. I think I think it was Bitcoin to um to individual refugees within the camp who were then able to go and pay for goods [00:34:00] within the camp by their kiosks and. The um payment is done by an Iris scan.
So they do a scan of the eye as as they go through the checkout and they have a balanced that is is tied to their to their person. I think very Innovative in a very good way of being able to have a system within the place like that and it does lead to other opportunities within the emerging world where it could be very very useful.
Um, but I just don't know how at the moment if there's a solution for it to be tangible to be to be actually workable in everyday life.
Tim: No, I mean, I think the only the nearest things I've seen to that took about your wages example, there's thing I've seen to that is there are. Um cryptocurrency startups to [00:35:00] pay their staff partly in real money so they can pay the rent and whatever but also partly in in coins as part of, you know, Which are uh tied to their system like, you know startups paying in shares or options.
Um, you know, you get some some coin that that is is part of the cryptocurrency. They're building as part of the building cryptocurrency. If that makes any sense, we get rights to Future coins presumably because they have minted them yet. But um, but I think that's as near as I've come to see that done but that's interesting because it's direct conversion of work
into or effort into future future coinage, whether those people win out in terms of being able to buy a house or a Rolls-Royce with that at the end is like wholly speculative because as you say that volatility is pretty high in those cryptocurrencies occurrences,
Tyson: and [00:36:00] how would someone convert it back into a currency that can actually be used that's the issue.
Um, At the moment, it's very difficult unless I mean unless one of these currencies actually does become mainstream and does very very well. The ability to cash the end is probably going to be quite low until until very long period of time ahead in the future. I understand it from a "I'm involved with startup
I'm going to take some equity in the business". That's essentially the way that I would think about that example that you just gave.
Tim: Yeah, but I think it's it's it's different in the equity laws don't you know than the normal laws of how you handle shares and those sorts of rules don't necessarily apply.
And so so there's an element of wild west in that in the people are making up their own rules as they go along and at some point legislation will presumably [00:37:00] catch up and. And the apply or not apply to various of the criteria, but you know, um, it's not I don't think it's clear yet how that's going to play out as you say.
Tyson: Yeah, and I think as a first hurdle is a The Next Step where we might see a leg up in or more of a recognition for the cryptocurrencies will be when a large. Multinational corporation do a deal and have some of that payment or some of that transaction, um, you know in a cryptocurrency form, you know see one of large corporation go out and buy a small company and they say we're going to pay for this or partly pay for this in crypto, that could be where all of a sudden the tangibility of the [00:38:00] crypto World becomes more visible.
Tim: You wouldn't want to be the auditor or the people who do with due diligence on deal with you or maybe maybe it's like, you know, you get to to live off that deal for life, but being the expert in you know, yeah Crypto M and A.
Tyson: Yeah exactly exactly and it could happen.
I mean, I'm sure there are companies out there and the large modern multinational corporations who are out there doing that right now actually. Um figuring out a way to be able to pay for something in crypto that they've amassed. Um my worry just take a step back to what we're talking about slightly earlier was if I was putting in my a certain amount of effort or certain devoted a certain amount of time to something that potentially doesn't have value in the future.
Uh, you know, it's very high probability. That would be it could [00:39:00] be potentially worthless. I would have to re-evaluate how I value my time if that makes sense. That's uh, that's the hard part about a lot of these uh, a lot of these ideas,
Tim: but I think what we. What we're all doing already and is speculating on housing market, um and and the value of that.
I mean as an example depending on how far north you go, the the amount of of gain in value of a property is changed radically. I mean, you know the last 10 years or 15 years property prices outside the southeast are pretty much static. Um, we haven't seen the kind of four or five x growth at the southeast has had so so, you know, when you talk about talk about speculating or putting effort and money into something that doesn't pay back relatively.
like all of the property outside London hasn't paid back [00:40:00] anything like but it has within the, you know, greater London and and a few hotspots nearby and that's um, you know, we were all involuntarily speculating on that. Um, so it's kinda even if you don't know you doing it you probably are you know, you know,
Tyson: I agree with that to a degree.
Um, my argument though would be that firstly you people need places to live so there is a tangible value, um on a property. Um, and secondly if you're a property investor, you generally will get a yield on a property. So a return on your investment which. Which yes, it doesn't necessarily capital to appreciate it.
But you are getting a return on the capital invested into a property. So it does it for me it slightly slightly different level [00:41:00] of speculation.
Tim: Oh, yeah, for sure. I mean, it's not they're not those kind of All or Nothing risk that you're looking at with some of the cryptocurrencies for sure or even some of the kind of more speculative financial instruments.
Um where you've got kind of not quite equivalent but similar levels of risk and reward balance. So I just throwing a little 10 years in the future. What do you think of the drivers that are going to change money and where you think when you think we might end up with, you know, but like say only ten years in the future.
I don't think 100 is kind of practical but
Tyson: I I think that the driver is going to be technology. And the Next Generation coming through have a much higher level of much more comfortable with using these new forms of currency. Obviously [00:42:00] Bitcoin Etc being used. For transactions over the Internet of the dark web for a number of different things and it has been for a few years now.
Um, once that becomes more mainstream, once you have a large portion of the global population who is in these type of transaction in that type of way, um, it becomes more likely that that the central banks and the government and corporations will jump and board. But I don't think that's for 10-year occurrence.
I think that's probably more generation that 20 - 30 years. What do I think happens the next 10 years? I think the use of cash will deplete more and more. Um, we've seen in the last. Five or six years. I think the ECB withdrew their 500 euro notes because you know is that again? They stated fraud as a reason, but I [00:43:00] think there's going to be less and less cash in circulation more of a digital footprint being taken into account when it comes to transactions for the purposes of anti-money laundering for the purposes of tax.
So that governments are able to. Uh ensure that people aren't trying to get around the system, but what that generally means is that people and technology and everything for do with the system will be analyzed to such a degree that people are going to try and find new ways. Number one around it and number two that data how you have data going to be used.
You know, you've got this whole. Facebook Cambridge Analitica Scandal eccentric cetera now that is going to be kept somewhere the more that that transactions are digitalized and and are people going to be comfortable with all of that. Being [00:44:00] Warehouse somewhere.
Tim: Yeah, I mean it does previous discussion. We probably need to have on this podcast at some point in the future because we sort of touched on it every week, but I think probably we need to do devote ourselves to a full.
Full thing on that because I think the future of privacy is really exciting and really interesting anyway, but um, so there any kind of links or references you want to want to mention so that people can kind of read up on some of this stuff or places that you think people can learn little more.
Hey, so I think there was just send me an email and I'll put them on the end of the podcast because reading your urls will be inconvenient, but maybe you could kind of mention the sources if you got some of you like to talk about.
Tyson: Um one that I've um or two that I can think of my head that I've been tracking for a while money Week Magazine have a mailing list, which they send out daily really interesting [00:45:00] emails.
They've been talkin about the future of money and the digitalization of money and what that means for the average person for a while and the other is a newsletter that I subscribe to called capital and conflict again. This is actually. Part of the same group that produced The Money Magazine. Um, but it's again a very very interesting perspective very much top down big picture when it comes to discussing these things.
Um, but, I mean personally, I like to think about it from from my if I think about it from a professional standpoint for what I do for a living. Is what people don't understand is how ingrained the monetary system is with our everyday lives. The pursuit of to gain is something that we all take part in another and we are [00:46:00] programmed to do so and have been programmed to do so.
For generations and the way I know it's an extreme way of thinking but imagine if tomorrow at money never existed that's the way that I would like to think about things the possibility the world in the conventional sense doesn't exist. I don't know if you've seen a documentary was years ago called the Zeitgeist where they went through um the possibility of the world where imagine we found the planet that was exactly the same as a that we could move to right here right now exactly the same resources except there was no humans there whatsoever. So we had a whole brand new planet that we could just move to would we have money on that planet?
Would there be a need for any money,
Tim: right? I mean, I think I think there's a there's a lot of really good science fiction in that area. I mean some of it kind of quite [00:47:00] socialist and some of it not but but I think and again that touches on something that we're hoping to talk about in the near future which is the future of work because like if you if you look at some of the potential Utopias of of you know Universal plenty, um, then some of the drivers for earning money and working
become like different and then there's the whole Universal basic income conversation. So I think the like we um, as you say money is deeply ingrained into into the future in and all of those sort of subtopics actually feed into the way that money turns up but I um our goal with this is really only to be a teaser to set people's mind thinking and maybe Queue off some Future.
interviews is so maybe we should uh, unless you got anything else you want to kind of throw in I think maybe we should leave it there and then and I'd certainly like to thank you for your time fascinating [00:48:00] chat that we could have gone on for hours with. I'm convinced.
Tyson: Yeah, thank you very much.
And um, yes pleasure to uh to be part of part of your podcasts and a very interesting chat. And if yeah, if anyone does have any questions and maybe composed for the links in the in the comment section once the podcast is online.
Tim: Yeah brilliant. Well, thanks very much for that. That's great, and thanks for your time.
Tyson: You too, thank you very much.