body
Vim: [00:00:00] hi, I'm
Vimla Appaddo
Tim: [00:00:01] and I'm Tim Panton
Vim: [00:00:02] and you're listening to the distributed features podcast on this podcast. We talk about all things future. We sit with guests and dismantle the status quo and think about what what's going to happen in years to come. However, this podcast is a little bit different today.
We're taking a moment to sit back and reflect on the current state of the world. We're going through a pandemic at the moment, which has meant a huge shift in our way of living and working, but we're also experience huge shifts in social movements and protests in particular. So today we're going to talk about.
Mainly around the black lives matter movement and how it's impacting our day to day lives, but also what the future might look like for social movements themselves, but also the impacts of what black lives matter might have. So as a person of color and as a woman, and as someone who has spoken openly around a diversity and inclusion, there's part of me that feels.
Angry and frustrated. It's not because of what's happening, but because of how long it's taken for the world to wake up. And I think a big part of that frustration and actually the reality of why the world is woken up is because of coronavirus and people are forced to be at home and watch the news and understand what's going on.
Tim: [00:01:29] That's interesting. Do you think, you think it's the, the being at home and not the existence of social media itself? I mean,
Vim: [00:01:39] yeah. I think both, both of those things were spent. My assumption is we spend, if the general population is spending more time on their phones in front of a screen, And therefore more in tune with what's going on in the world.
and if there wasn't social media, we wouldn't be getting access to that kind of live update of what's happening.
Tim: [00:02:01] I think that's definitely true. I think that the, you know, there's a definite feeling of kind of, I don't know those of us who can't sleep or whatever drew doom scrolling, and particularly into the other time zones.
So I think it makes it, it makes other people's. issues more visible because we are doing this like day at night. and, but also just the availability of high quality video from, from smartphones that's unfiltered or relatively unfiltered, I think is a huge change that, that enables. Narratives to get out there.
but they never did in the past, I think.
Vim: [00:02:39] Yeah, no, you're right. But I think that unfiltered point it's really interesting because evenly you're seeing it live and it's a firsthand account of what's happening. It's still through the lens of the person who is there. And then it's open to interpretation through the echo chamber that you're posting it into.
And what I've seen is that real tension between, how things are being reported or that one lens perspective of what's happening or. Even the law, the language that's being used to describe it is, has been really, really interesting for me. so the, kind of, what, what the major of called counter protest for the far right?
Protection of statues in London just recently vices the, Protests and violence that have stemmed from the black lives matter movements themselves and the language around that. And then the perspectives of who's recording it. And what's not seen on screen or the angle that's captured at to determine whether it's a good or a bad thing.
And like all of these different things are just kind of, I'm trying to assess every time I see something that they like. But that's not what everyone is doing at the same time.
Tim: [00:03:56] Right? I mean, I was super careful to say narrative because I do think it, although it's compared with the past and news organizations, it's relatively unfiltered.
You're absolutely right. That it is. It is definitely filtered. and, and it's, and some of that's filtering, as you say, we apply ourselves, like, you know, as a middle aged white, rich, You know, all the privileged terms person. I, I choose to read this stuff or not like I don't, it doesn't impact on my daily life.
Normally, like I either decide that I want to find out what's happening, why people are protesting. I want to understand it. I want to understand the issue about statues. I want to find out that somebody is history or I don't. And I, it doesn't like the kind of the ultimate expression of that, that privilege is if I don't, it will make no difference to my life.
Yeah. Like, you know, ultimately there is no point in my day in which any of these issues directly impinge on me, if I choose not to get involved, which is like the bottom of it. That's the big difference between you and me. You can't walk away from any of this. This is part of who you are. What is in your daily life?
It just isn't in mine unless I choose to make it. So, so I have to, you know, I have to make a conscious effort to be present in those conversations to listen to them and if I don't then it just washes over me. And I think it's easy for that to happen.
Vim: [00:05:32] Yeah. And you're so right, because when you put it into perspective, I've never had that choice.
I can't disengage from it because you look at me and you see me as not you, but anyone looks at me and sees me as part of that. And whether I want to, or not, it's a fight I have to have because I experienced racism all the time and I always have done. And I was, I was born into this movement without it being a choice of mine to take, And that's, you know, even with that, there's still a lot of learning I'm doing around my own bias and my own ways of being an ally and how to support other people that are going through the same thing and amplifying other voices, because it isn't just me.
It's this it's, it's everyone that's experienced that kind of discrimination. and what I've found most recently is, supporting people, trying to be allies as well. So not only am I trying to support. My immediate network. It's supporting people who want to engage and have those conversations and don't know how to do it, or don't know how to learn or don't don't know what things to read.
There's this new, which is great. There's a new pressure on the people who have been discriminated against to uplift the people that wants to know
Tim: [00:06:49] "The word on the curb" people are putting out the content that, some of that content is just excellent and, and, and very good for, for what you, you know, what you're describing in terms of like, call it education, if you want it to, if you want to kind of put a serious label on it, but just like, you know, an introduction, a sense of where people are coming from and why, for, you know, those of us for whom it's not a lived experience.
but it has to be a learned one that like that stuff is really, really valuable. I'm really pleased that they were on, you know, what was only a few months ago. I think it's really, it's nice that, that. resource is there and I think it's really useful and I kind of want to encourage people to go back and listen to listen to that interview, but also more importantly, watch the content.
Yeah. Yeah. It's really well done.
Vim: [00:07:45] Yeah. They're very, they're very, very good at what they do. And, but that's also the thing, you know, one of the reasons you asked me to start this podcast with you was to bring more diversity into the conversation because it's, it's easy to. To find the people, you know, to give a voice that you recognize to talk from the perspective that you understand.
It's hard to bring difference to that conversation and bring in different voices and different perspectives and different stories. and that's, you know, that's one of the reasons why we keep going, because we want to keep challenging the standard narrative that is there and why we do put effort into.
Getting different people on from different backgrounds.
Tim: [00:08:29] I think it's not just about challenging though. I think it's it. You know, you have to hope that this is the direction that the world is moving in and that, you know, we're not just challenging people. We're informing people about where they're going to end up and therefore like, Hey, just learn about it for your own, you know?
Vim: [00:08:49] Well, that's true or not. Yeah. That's the kind of bit that we want. to un pick today's is what, what happens next? What does the future that I think the situation we found ourselves in is this huge opportunity for change, but how do you keep that momentum going when we're being pushed into. Yeah, normal.
We've been pushed back into society as it was, like through simple things like the shops opening again, or, you know, working, working our way back into the office or okay. You know, the, the tidbits of the past are coming back now to try and push us back into that and to get us out of this changed the world mentality, how do we keep going?
Tim: [00:09:40] well, like you said earlier, I think change is always slower than you'd hope, you know, even the inevitable just takes way longer than it should. and so I think, you know, it is always a long run, but, you know, how you keep it moving? I think. What are what I hope. And I'm starting, I think, to see signs of it, which is that, that, how do I phrase this?
That lack of diversity is being seen as a liability. And that sounds like complicated negative thing, but actually like a lot of what change, what actually changes in the world is, is due to what risks insurance company is not allowed, prepared to take on. I, I, it sounds totally trivial, but actually it really isn't like, you know, certainly in the security world, when you look at what people do, what, what changes people make in network security, they're almost all driven about what they can get insurance for.
If there is gone, this company says we won't cover you for that. Then you have to go and fix it. And until, unless, and until that happens, then you carry on because it's good business. So I think what we have to start doing is making it clear that there's a. There's a liability costs to not having a diverse viewpoint, to not, being inclusive because otherwise you're going to lose out in one way or another either you're going to be your brand is going to be tarnished or you won't get those customers or, you know, and I, I, it sounds.
I kind of want to be like, like the Quakers who just said, you know, what was it? They said this a fantastic thing. They said that basically slavery is an offense against God, you know? And it's just that simple, like, you know, we're not, we're not interested. We're not going to engage in the, in, in anything else about it.
Like it's a simple,
moral. Yeah,
dictate. And we're just going to carry it. I mean, I must say I, at some point I'd really like to get a Quaker on here because they're just so certainly in it historically, so admirable, they, like, if you talk about who's on the right side of history consistently, it's almost always the Quakers.
you know, and, and, but you won't see any statues to them cause they don't do that.
Vim: [00:12:06] Morally morally, correct?
Tim: [00:12:09] Yeah, not a, not a very individual. Like, I mean, I don't even think there probably are statues to people Roundtree in the factory people, but like not in the same constitutes as those, a lot of the other business types. Interesting that
Vim: [00:12:27] it's also you're right, because the. I know personally, I've been making a note of the organizations like the businesses I will buy from.
From now on because of the statements they've put out or the way that they've talked about diversity and supporting black lives matter. And more importantly, I've made a note of the organizations that haven't and they will not be getting my business anymore. And I think that's my kind of hope is that people do start seeing an economic times of like the biggest way to have an impact through of this, to vote with your pound or to vote with your money.
How will I truly make the systemic changes is by that it's not a support supporting or not supporting the organizations that you don't think have done enough. I
Tim: [00:13:19] think that's right. I think what I struggle with with those things is knowing whether they've actually done enough or whether they've just talked about it.
You know, again, I keep coming back to security, but it's sort of, kind of world I know about people will talk about, Oh, we've got, you know, what is it? Military grade encryption. And actually like that sort of actually, it's a tell for the fact that they've done as little as possible, but it sounds good. And, and so you sort of like, kind of want to.
I wish there was some way of knowing whether they actually delivered on those promises, but I mean, making the promises in the first place, it's like, it's a huge step forward. It's sort of not enough.
Vim: [00:14:06] Yeah. And I think that's where it's up to us as the general public to keep holding them account to account in a year's time.
And this is a lot to ask of anyone let alone, like let alone the individual, but. In a year's time, pulling out the statement and being like you said, you would do this. What is you data on it? What type of now, where, where have you got to? because we not, not to sound pessimistic or skeptical, but we can't trust the organizations to do that themselves.
Let's keep putting that data out there. We need to push for it to happen. and for me, that's. That's the future of changes, really, you know, don't get me wrong. I'd love to see a rethink the economy and capitalism, but I'm also realistic that we will, it's going to implement decision makers and change the most, and you see it through the way different countries have responded to the crisis, to the pandemic and how they've weighed up the economic benefit versus the health benefit consistently.
And I think that's the same thing we have to do now is weighing up the. Economic the economy alongside our morals and our principles. And we've spoken about this, a lot of like profit, profit, purpose driven businesses and aligning profits and purpose and the triple bottom line and all of that kind of thing.
And I think this is lone of the things that has to pay into it.
Tim: [00:15:32] Yeah. I mean, I think one of the things that I would. Like to see. And I suspect one won't, but it would be great if we did this, that some of the larger investors, like the pension funds and the church of England, and some of the, some of the people who, who, if they say, I am not buying shares in this company, because I don't think their profile on diversity is adequate.
That's an instant move like that. You know, we, we saw that happening with, with South Africa, the disinvestment, in South Africa was driven initially by the churches. And then as you say, you know, people, individuals did it and they drove other companies to it. And, and, you know, it was a knock on effect, but the initial place was, was the, you know, when the church of England said we're not investing in it.
And the thing in South Africa that was noticed, and, and it took a ludicrously, I mean, offensively long time for that change to make any actual impact. But. I still think it was an initial, an initial chain. So I think in, in, and, you know, really started things happening. And I think that is something that you have to, you know, we have to push for it.
We have to push for people to, to not invest in companies that aren't doing this right. And aren't making the effort and it is an effort like it's never going to be, you know, it's always easier to carry on doing the thing that you've been doing. That's made you rich.
Vim: [00:17:07] Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. So that's, that's also part of it.
Is we anyone who runs a business now, I think needs to start thinking about the changes that they can make to fit into this new, new economy that's going to exist and the new power structures that are going to exist, because if there is anything that we've seen as people. People are calling it out more and more, and they're taking it upon themselves to have those discussions with themselves and use their influence to change the discourse.
So you either get left behind or left out of that conversation or you're, you're leading it. You're putting stuff out that gets people to positively talk about what it is that you're doing.
Tim: [00:17:56] That whole, influencer and, and, and the change in basically the change in the way that we get news and information is. Still in transit. I think that's still, still very much changed in progress and exactly how that's going to play out, I think is when it comes back to our kind of tech focus on this podcast as well.
Exactly how that's going to play out still really unclear to me. I mean, you look at the, both Facebook and Twitter. Really struggling to know where their line is. whether they have a line, whether they, whether they are purely businesses or whether they have a moral incentive to, you know, to deal with the truth.
I mean, there was like, there was this thing, Zuckerberg got up and said that it wasn't Facebook's job wasn't to be an arbiter of truth. and then there was this actually very funny, I thought, kind of viral, tweet or not tweet, but viral posting, which said, '"Zuckerberg is dead" says Mark Zuckerberg', which is like, it's like, you know, Okay.
So if, if, if he couldn't take it down because like, it wasn't, it wasn't, it wasn't his job to arbitrator on truth and it's like, okay, well maybe that's a little and, you know, I think, think they're starting to realize in the way that I'm going. I was, I always felt this about them as like, there's a very big tendency in that.
Then that world to go and do something and worry about the morals of it afterwards, or worry about the consequences and the morals of afterwards. You just do the thing that you want to do and to hell with like, we'll clear up the mess afterwards, to the least extent that we have to
Vim: [00:19:42] it's their mantra, right.
Move fast and break things.
Tim: [00:19:45] Yeah
Vim: [00:19:45] that that's it to a T it's like I will get this live at all costs literally. And that's that's. You know, it's not right. And it's that whole culture needs to shift as well, because we can't keep taking these risks.
Tim: [00:20:06] Right. I totally, totally. And the thing that, that, like I got, if this is just like old guy talking or what, but, but I'm finding it more and more irritating how much, we are
praising the people who are on the wrong side, you know, the people who make transparently bad decisions, which are obviously going to have bad consequences and get rich and get away with it. and then they get like, you know, Well, not statues, but like the modern equivalent, like, you know, and it just bugs me actually, but there's, I don't know what you do about it.
Yeah, no, I
Vim: [00:20:50] think the more we have an open dialogue about it, the less of a impact they'll have. even like the other day, I was just talking to my brother. About, the, like what makes someone successful or how we judge, success and like competitive spirit. And there's actually a sparks by the, the last dance documentary around, Chicago bulls and more specifically Michael Jordan.
And I said to my brother and everyone else on the call. I was, I said, you know, would you want to work with Michael Jordan? Would you want to be on his team? And interestingly, the men were like, yeah, absolutely. He pushes you to succeed at all costs. He's got that competitive edge that makes sure that you're never gonna, you're never gonna fail.
He lifts everyone up and mean, and then they, they was there. The kind of, Comparison to that in business. If your Elon Musk's or your Facebook, yours, lack of bugs, or that it's the same trait you see in successful businesses that exist at the moment to which I said would hate it. I would hate to be on that team because success at all costs is and how we should judge success.
That's not success. That's profit or that's not success. It's. What we, how we see those traits at the moment. And I said, I think we're on the brink of changing, what that looks like and what new leadership looks like and how to lead through moments of change and build different businesses. And we'll see a rise in different voices that can prove it can be done differently.
You just have to be willing to listen to that difference.
Tim: [00:22:40] I think, yeah, listening, listening for differences, not a skill we're taught. and, and it's not a, it's not valued enough, you know, I don't know how you change that. I don't know how we, how we educate for it or, or whatever, but it's like, you know, it's really not a.
A valued skill and it is so valuable.
Vim: [00:23:03] Yeah. But I think that's part of the diversity and inclusion. Like I think we, at the moment we run the risk that diversity and inclusion just becomes race in the same way. The, gender just became all of the different genders that exist without thinking about intersectionality.
So the future of divested inclusion needs to be truly inclusive with everything that makes us different. So whether your, a young Brown woman from a working class background with a anxiety problem and a single parent, that's what true inclusion looks like. A seeing someone for that whole self. I'm not just, well, there's a woman in that Brown and therefore we're going to put them on this diversity inclusion program at work.
It's it's taking into consideration all of those different things.
Tim: [00:23:59] and the invisible ones, as well as the visible ones, that's even harder.
Vim: [00:24:05] Yeah. And I think if we can change, if we can make sure we don't make the same mistakes we did with the gender movement, if that intersectionality with what's happening now, we can start to embed that listening to difference because you're immediately taking a step away from.
Well, I can see to what I can hear.
Tim: [00:24:28] Right, right. Yes, no, you're right. That if, if you're, if you're not basing it on like a snap visual judgment, then you have to listen to find out who somebody is. And I think that's yeah, but like I say, I mean, I suppose actually there, I mean, you know, we have seen times in the past where, Groups of like the ways that things have been done have been like overturned, but often it's like only as a result of either.
well not exactly catastrophic failure, but pretty serious failure. it amused me. My, my dad got his first job in the civil service essentially. as a diversity thing is this is 1951. but the foreign office had had enough Cambridge graduates who turned a spies there's double agents that they didn't want to hire any more Cambridge graduates.
So finding a poor scholarship boy from Notting at well Lincoln, but at Nottingham university was like, seemed like a safer bet lower risk, you know, than, than the Cambridge boys, which is really kind of, but you have the, like, they have to disastrously kind of. Failed. You need a category almost catastrophic system failure before people will get jolted out of their particularly hiring practices.
Vim: [00:25:52] Yeah. Oh yeah, absolutely. do you just hope that that happens that it should be happening now? and I, I, I'm confident enough to call it out when I'm speaking to organizations anyway. Like who's on your board, or just asking the questions to get an understanding of where they might sit on that diversity and inclusion scale and the reasons for it.
But I know that that's not common practice because of the potential repercussions of asking those questions and that I hope will change in time as well, even having to make it public, like in the same way, when companies of a certain size have to release the gender pay gap. If you had to release your race pay gap, or I dunno, those kinds of things.
I think help change the conversation we have about it.
Tim: [00:26:49] I mean, most of this so far talking about. Business. And I'm not convinced that businesses, the problem, or it's a problem, but I don't think it's the problem. And if you look at, like health outcomes, and, and things that are actually, education outcomes, things that are actually in the province of the state rather than a business, those need to be working on as well.
And almost, I think. From the numbers, it looks like more so. And, and how that, how one gets that change to happen? I don't know. I don't understand yet. And all the other thing that bothers me at the moment slightly is, is, you know, we're all doing kind of all our zoom calls and video calls and whatever with people we already know.
Yeah, it's one of the things I said this a while back like that makes doing this podcast more difficult now is that we don't meet new people. And it struck me that I've with a very few exceptions. I haven't met anybody new in the last, you know, three months and, and that is, that's unusual for me and it makes,
hearing other viewpoints really difficult.
Vim: [00:28:11] Yeah. But that's actually the opposite of what's happened to me. And for two reasons, one, I put out a public call to speak to people for my book, which meant I got people I'd never met before willing to talk to me which, which I did. And then I joined a, mentoring program.
Why do you give people be just mental, anyone. So anyone can sign up to have a conversation with you and people have been, and it's meant that I've been able to speak to people that I would have never spoken to before. and that's been great at hearing those different voices and understanding different problems that people face.
and not that it's been more than I would have done in normal circumstances, but it's been routes too. Caring difference that I wouldn't have done otherwise.
Tim: [00:28:59] That's interesting. So, so I get something that if I were to make an effort, then it would be fixable. That's interesting. Maybe I just have to like summon up there, the energy to go out and like make more noise about talking to people.
Yeah.
Vim: [00:29:16] It's energy consuming because it's not the meet up. I'm getting a, getting a drink and kind of easing yourself into a, it's an immediate bam on face to face one-to-one for an hour with someone it's a very, very different type of energy it takes. And so you almost have to be ready for that and like give yourself the time and preparation you need to be ready for it.
I think you're right though. The focus on, on public services is. Huge. And I actually got very frustrated at the focus of, health outcomes from Corona virus. And it obviously rightly, so calling out the, the health concerns around black and minority ethnic populations, but I was sitting there thinking, but that's true all the time.
Black and minority ethnic people were just more likely to die anyway, because of the systemic and integrated racism in the system that we don't address this isn't new information, this isn't new stuff. Like I was just like, why. Yeah, of course. That's true. Why wouldn't it be true?
Tim: [00:30:31] I think it's, I mean, I would need to know the statistics, but I think it's actually even more true with what the coronavirus appears to do.
And this is going to date fantastically fast, but what it appears to do is to. Exacerbate underlying, like, it's sort of almost like a magnifying glass. I give you that. Apparently there's some conditions for which this doesn't apply, but pretty much anything you've got wrong with me. We're on with you it'll have a go at.
And so you sort of, you know, any sort of highlighting. throwing into sharp relief, those things that were already there. yeah, I think so. So yeah, I mean, it's sort of, but yeah, I mean, health outcomes, it's hard to decouple them from poverty. Like I think that it's always really difficult with, with, with health outcomes to say how much of this is, is.
Is to do with just, just I say just, but it's to do with poverty and we fit. If we fix poverty, this issue wouldn't happen. And how much of it's systemic for another reason - decoupling those things. There's always been a certainly from my perspective, and I'm not no expert in that field . tricky.
Vim: [00:31:48] Yeah.
But the thing is the systemic point that is no quick fix is cheap. So it takes a long time and a vast amount of money to be able to fix it. And particularly in public services, no, one's willing to invest that time and money for longterm outcomes, particularly when the decision, it's not a stuff that affects the decision makers.
it affects a group of people that, ha OT happy to be forgotten about. And this is me getting in. So my, Negative Headspace around. It's like, I, I can see my, emotional energy just kind of deep diving now, but it is that really difficult thing is
as a, again, as a, as a Brown woman, my pain and health concerns are not going to be taken as seriously as a white women. Let alone a white man. And that means that I'm more likely to live with a health condition for longer without getting the white treatment, just because of how I was born. And that's what even taking into consideration, the socioeconomic circumstances.
I find myself in and that's, to me that's a fundamental systemic issue that no one is addressing because it's really hard to quantify. Except it isn't because we've got the data on it, but we're not, we don't capture it again. It goes back to the invisible women argument. We don't capture the data in the right way to tell those stories because the people that are capturing the data don't experience those problems.
Tim: [00:33:23] Yeah. I mean, we haven't really talked about this. One of the things we should try and again, trying to bring up in the podcast is about data capture. We've talked about data as input to models. but never really like the step before is like, how do you design a data capture? Because I think it is, I think that, You know, actually coming, we are seeing change.
Like I know this isn't, isn't exactly like, it's not, it's not the biggest problem there was out there, but, but it's kind of, kind of encouraging to see that both Facebook and IBM have acknowledged that, and her Amazon as well. I think that, facial recognition is flawed and it shouldn't be used for law enforcement.
Like that's recent. Now, we've been, we had people on here saying that two years ago, but it's actually finally happened and, and it's not a, you know,
it's encouraging like that. There is change that change that we could see was inevitable and necessary. And, you know, people cause people told us that two years ago, Has actually happened within a, you know, a relatively short timescale and, and I think people are starting to think about, well, how do I design the data capture for this?
How do I ensure that what I'm going to get out of this is something that is usable. Cause here's the thing is the real key to this, which is if you've done all that work and you can't use it because it's not suitable for public use. Then you've wasted your time. You've wasted a ton of money. And I think as that message gets over, then we start to come back to the thing I was saying originally, which is that doing it badly becomes a liability.
And that is what makes changes happens. That's just like the fact that like, we can't afford to make this mistake again. but how that plays into the public sector is, is I think is tricky. You know, we're, we're not. And the current, like I was going to say public service ethos, but it's not what it used.
Like, that doesn't mean what it used to mean. but that, that kind of the raison d'etre for public service, doesn't factor that in, in the way that it should. and I don't know how you change that. I really don't actually apart from, by talking about it.
Vim: [00:35:55] Yeah. Yeah. And getting thinkers and doers in to help solve the problems.
because otherwise it, and it goes back to what we were saying is like having those different voices and that talk about it. Not, not the same, same people making the same decisions again and again, but with a new lens because of what's popular or what what's happening in the media or. Purely driven by the profit margin that will happen.
Tim: [00:36:27] Yeah. I mean, I guess that, do you know, that interview you did with Colin Mayers, like hints at the idea that there is change on that interface between business and government and hopefully that can like drive forward. Change in, in, in the government space as well as in, in business. But I, I don't, I don't know that world well enough to, to know, except to say that it does change.
It is capable of change.
Vim: [00:36:54] Yeah, it is. it is indeed. And then of course there's the, the cultural disconnect that's happening across the world at the moment, the tour, I've not seen any other country through my echo chamber. That's had counter protests. I think that it's just been London, but the kind of the conversations around having an open conversation, not argument about what's going on and how we continue to do that in the future.
I think it's going to be interesting
Tim: [00:37:26] to what extent. That conversation is going to be facilitated or impeded by social media, I think is really important. And I know, I'm not optimistic about that. I mean, there are people who are, but, but I think, think we're gonna, like, I wonder to what extent that kind of zoom cozy zoom chats with your family will, will change.
That we've all been doing will change the way that we regard online communication. I wonder if there's like an underlying shift there reflect, because those are people who you actually kind of know and care about and understand the background of whether that some of that feeling will spread itself out into the more kind of, and antagonistic a stick and, and, and.
I'm anonymous media. I'd like to think it worked, but Maybe that's over optimistic.
Vim: [00:38:33] Yeah.
Tim: [00:38:34] So do we have like a takeaway message for, for people who've made it into the 50th minute or whatever, where do we, where do we see the future? Like that was a very gloomy future. Can we, do you think between us, we can paint it. A more optimistic future.
Vim: [00:38:52] I think the future will look like one where people can use their voice for positive change.
And I think that will keep happening in lots of different ways.
Tim: [00:39:03] I, yeah, I think that. That's I hope that's true. And I think it could well be true and I think, but it only happens if we all teach ourselves and teach everybody else to do some more listening than we've been doing up till now.
Vim: [00:39:22] So future for live listening conversations.
Tim: [00:39:28] Yes. That sounds pretty good. Actually, I could, I could live in that.
Vim: [00:39:32] Yeah. Cool.
Tim: [00:39:35] Let's go for it.
Vim: [00:39:37] I'll start today. Yeah.
Tim: [00:39:39] Excellent. Well, we feel like we just have,
Vim: [00:39:42] yeah. Yeah. It's true. And hopefully our listeners.
Tim: [00:39:45] Yeah. Cool. Alright. I think that's a lovely place to leave it.
Let's do that. Thanks. Okay. Take care. Bye bye.