Media in NZ
Tim: [00:00:03] this is the distributor future podcast and, um, I'm Tim Panton
Vim: [00:00:08] And I'm Vimla Appadoo
Rebecca: [00:00:10] and I'm Rebecca Caroe.
Tim: [00:00:13] And so this week, um, as we always do, we're trying to find out a little bit about what the future looks like by, um, talking to people who are maybe building a small part of it and, uh, and get a sense of what the future might be from them. Um, and Rebecca's kindly joined us all the way from New Zealand.
So we're you have sunshine and we don't. So, um, tell us a little bit about what you're doing now and maybe where that, that goes into the future.
Rebecca: [00:00:43] So I'm a business to business marketer by training and background, but so I'm a geek by inclination. And what I'm doing now mostly is working with small, medium size enterprises who are mostly owner managed businesses here in New Zealand.
And we have a very particular view of the world here. I've lived here for 10 years, but you can tell from my accent, I'm not a native New Zealand, although I'm a naturalized New Zealander. And the South Pacific is a long way from a lot of the center of activity in the world economy, but it's actually a very active tech and, um, innovation place.
I was complimented the other day by a friend, a mutual friend of ours, Joanne Jacobs in Australia. And she said, I genuinely think that the entrepreneurial ecosystem in New Zealand is seven years ahead of Australia. And what happens here is that you get people who have very smart ideas and. Often succeed in commercializing them and very quickly moving them off shore often to the States rather than to the UK.
Um, and so there are some quite big businesses that you will have heard of, for example, substack the newsletter sending program or zero, the accountancy software, which originated as New Zealand businesses, but you wouldn't know it now.
Tim: [00:02:17] So I'm particularly interested in, in, um, you mentioned when we last talked, uh, some work in the space of media, I'm particularly interested in how media is evolving in your mind, because I think kind of sense here is that it's a little bit stuck.
Um, and I'm kind of hoping that over there, it's sort of moved to somewhere ahead and we maybe can guess where it's going to go from that.
Rebecca: [00:02:45] Media here is quirky. Every big city of which there are five substantial ones has its own broadsheet new paper. Still. One is independent. That's in Dunedin, the Otago daily times, and all the others are owned by Australian entities.
So remember that New Zealand has a bit of a big part of brother, little brother relationship with Australia a little bit like Canada and the U S and perhaps Ireland to the UK. But the media piece that I work with is a website called interest dot co dot NZ that started off as an interest rates tracker for your mortgage and your bank savings.
It is now a business news website where you can get any information about anything that affects the economy in New Zealand. So obviously it does international news as well as local. Sure. As a platform it's never been a print entity. It's it's been a digital first entity. It's very old. It's been around for many years.
And its relationship with the mainstream media is frankly that it ignores the mainstream a lot of the time. The mainstream media are trying. To move to digital platforms, move to direct subscription, move to apps, and some of them are failing. Very obviously the most popular news website is called
And it's an aggregation site of all of the other broadsheets. And it's the sort of app that used to be a website. And it's now a website and an app. Yeah. Any new Zealander who lives abroad. Uses it to get their local home news, but it's become very click baity. It's free to use. And it was actually sold three weeks ago, go to management for the token dollar.
And we don't quite know where it's going. However, there are some new apps which are worth you looking at one of which is called press patron, which is a micro payments app where you can pay or donate to subscribe to some of these platforms. And that's getting good traction. It's actually built out of Australia, but Is doing some of its leading edge dev work for.
A ad free experience.
Tim: [00:05:21] And what's the, um, take up for that? I mean, is there a particular demographic that wants ad free or is it just like everyone?
Rebecca: [00:05:32] I can't answer the demographic, but I do know that the. People who watch and listen to the news are generally over 35 and most of them are over 40. So it's the generation that was brought up with print newspapers.
I know that because we did a reader survey recently, and there are some people who are much younger and, and use the interest dot code or ends ed website, but they use it because they're trying to self educate about the financial markets about the economy and to understand how the world works. So they're not perhaps using it as a news source as such.
Now, as far as take-up goes, there is a reasonably new website called The Spinoff, which is a feature as type website that does politics. Popular television and popular culture, not much sport. So I would say it's a, it's a slightly quirky mix and it started off with each section being sponsored by a large brand.
Some of them were banks, some of them were, um, retailers. And they have also taken up the press patron route and I am reliable informed that they have over 10,000 subscribers, which is quite a lot for New Zealand. Yeah. They also now are building after school podcasts to go alongside their print jet. Right. I print journalism written journalism.
So it's audio as well as written.
Tim: [00:07:05] So is that short form podcasts or like two or three minutes or is it a full, like, um, half hour in-depth thing?
Rebecca: [00:07:16] I only listen to one of them, which is called businesses is boring. Um, and that's an in depth interview with business owners and who are doing innovative and interesting and different things.
And that is sponsored by the national innovation agency, which is called Callahan named after a famous scientist. And, and it's interesting to see the types of businesses that they pick up on. So they pick up on. An author who writes children's stories about pony clubs and she's, you know, worldwide famous.
And then the next episode is about some scientists from Canterbury university who have found a way of recycling the acid used for galvanizing steel in order to extract the zinc from it and enable it to be reused and recycled, which they're trying to scale and commercialize. And you're like, well, that couldn't be more different.
Tim: [00:08:06] But, but so that's not a subscription podcast, that's a sponsored podcast. So there's like, there's a bunch of different business models floating around here and kind of subscription, ads and, and, and sponsored and things falling into specific. Like only doing one or do you see, because in the old days, the, the, you know, the newspapers, the paper, paper newspapers used to do, like all three simultaneously, is that still the case or are people starting to kind of only go down one path?
Rebecca: [00:08:45] The newer entities are choosing a path and there was a very interesting fashion magazine that launched recently. Which is digital first it's like in its first month. And it is entirely, uh, donation based. I have no idea how long they will last, but that is they've chosen one path. The old traditional media, as you say, are still trying all three is definitely ad supported.
And donations. So it seems to be a mix and nobody has worked out a single entity. However, it's extremely clear that the loyalty of the reader is preeminent and you've got to, to keep them coming back over and over. The frequency of visits is key to building that loyalty. And one of a brand like Is doing well because then readers notice that they are less click baity than other sources.
And so they vote with their feet and come to read the news on their website because they do not like the others. And that's a bit of a. Poor business situation because you can't control it. You can't control how others treat their journalists and the journalism that they choose to publish. But that seems to be the case here
Vim: [00:10:14] in, in New Zealand.
Is there a link between, um, the perception of, um,
Versus non-sponsored. So I think one of the things that I've seen personally is that distrust of anything that has an ad on it and the is something that's donation based?
Rebecca: [00:10:37] I have not seen that to distrust, but I also know that sponsored articles are very clearly labeled here.
You know, they'll have a, um, a Mark that explains that someone has paid to place this article. So people aren't trying to deceive the public, which I have seen elsewhere.
Tim: [00:10:56] And how does that look on, on a, on a webpage, particularly on mobile. Um, and we should maybe talk about mobile versus laptop in a bit, but, but how does that look on the screen that, that "this is sponsored by" like, How does it present itself?
Rebecca: [00:11:14] I can talk to stuff and I can talk to the interest dot, dot NZ ed websites. And they basically have, um, one of them has a red line framing up the summary article, um, that says sponsored, you know, it's as clear as that.
Tim: [00:11:29] Right. Okay. That's interesting. That's really, it's almost making a kind of a feature out of honesty there.
Rebecca: [00:11:39] New Zealander have a few really clear beliefs and attitudes and they really dislike deception. Mmm to the, to their own detriment sometimes. But in this case it comes through as being, well, no, we kind of knew that that was the case because I will read it if it looks like it's a worthwhile read. So the editorial control is still important in terms of selecting what words go on those pages.
Vim: [00:12:14] Sorry to jump in there. Um, but the. So the impact of the fake news narrative has been massive in the UK. Um, how people perceive, uh, news stories and whether they're real or not,
it's kind of a quick get out scheme for people who don't want to talk about it. It's just that it's "fake news". With new news, media outlets, arriving and new forms of journalism happening and building that trust.
What was the response been like to that
Rebecca: [00:12:51] here? As everywhere we dislike fake news, we don't get a lot of it. We do get clickbait, which I've already mentioned, you know, headlines that do not reflect the article that follows. And there was a very recently. Situation, which I ranted on LinkedIn, if anyone's interested in which the prime minister does a regular press conference here about COVID-19 as I'm sure, you know, dr.
Chris Bloomfield, who's the chief scientific advisor medical advisor stands beside her. Uh, he is known locally as the curve crusher. That's just a joke. Um, and. There was a situation where Auckland right at this moment is being moved to a lockdown level, 2.5 out of a four point scale. We had a local outbreak in the community.
They're still trying to contain it. And so we went into a limited lockdown level three, and then they brought us out to level two and a half, which basically means wear masks on public transport meetings of 10 people or fewer. But otherwise schools are open. Workplaces are open and the media, when they got to the question and answers, dove into a particular aspect of the story, which was that a Facebook advert had been used by the government locally here in Auckland to advise the populace about the lockdown level and what was happening.
And the headline in that Facebook advert was, could be misinterpreted. The information in the body copy was accurate, but the prime minister said, look, we made a mistake. We know that headline was misleading, but if you read the advert, you actually got the correct information. And she'd already said this and the journalist from the floor laid into her and did all that sort of aggressive journalistic questioning, which I'm sure you can imagine.
And one of them said, so when are you going to resign? And she was very firm and clear and you know what Jacinda Ardern's manner is. And the headline in the Herald was, which is the Auckland daily newspaper, the New Zealand Herald the next morning ran that 75% of the populace were furious about this.
But then if you then read the article, it actually was the exact inversion, 75% of the populous approve of how the government is handling the crisis. And that was a very recent example of the press, trying to amp up a situation that did not exist. And it was definitely, I wouldn't say fake, but getting close to being a manipulation of the facts and I was livid it and it seems like I wasn't alone.
Tim: [00:15:56] So do you think that we'll drive people away from the Herald and into the hands of people like the interest,
Rebecca: [00:16:05] it would drive them to And that they're not the right sort of media for that. Cause they're more about the economy, but it will drive people one of two ways. There are some shock jock talk, radio hosts.
There's a station called news talk Zed B, which is a lot of phone ins. And there's a reasonably right wing present a call, Mike Hoskins who just loves being provocative. And one of my clients has been on his show as a, as an expert commentator. And he sent me a text over the weekend saying that he had turned down an opportunity to be on the show recently because he was so cross that when the show host had him and another guest on would ask him a question, he gave his answer and then he would turn to the other interviewee and.
Misrepresent the answer that my client had just given on, live on it deliberately in order to provoke discussion. And he just said, I just can't be doing with this. It's just, yeah, it undermined my integrity. And I'm, I don't want to argue with you live on air, it's your show, but honestly don't do it to me.
So he's just withdrawn his services and he hasn't told him why.
Tim: [00:17:17] Hmm. I wonder to what extent that. That's going to follow through into the, the money or is there still like plenty of audience for the shock jock, um, style?
Rebecca: [00:17:32] I think there is, I don't know many of them. I mean, most people have Mike Hoskins, the sort of guy that tried to love him, or you hate him.
He's there for that particular reason. But yeah, people love phone in radio shows and, and. Media celebrities are very accessible in New Zealand. We're a small population. We've just hit 5 million people in a country, the size of great Britain. So, you know, there's a lot of empty space here and because there are a few people you can, you can get to people very, very easily.
So if you really feel that, you know, you can be on those shows, you can see Mike Hoskins out having a coffee with his colleagues near the radio station. It's completely normal here. I don't think that people will. I think that people stumble upon, alternative sources of media because yeah, cause word of mouth recommendation is extremely powerful in the business community here.
One of the things, as I mentioned I'm a marketer, one of the things that annoys me a lot is that you say, Oh Tim, you know what, when, where do you get most of your business form? And they say recommendation, word of mouth. And the problem with that is that it's. It can be extremely successful if you're a longterm well established business with a strong reputation, but it's extremely hard to do if you're a new business or you're launching a new service and you've got to rely on people recommending you.
And so the culture of personal recommendation, I'm sure feeds through, into the media as well.
Vim: [00:19:13] Yeah. I think that. That's really, really interesting. And, um, With the kind of alternative news sources that are starting to exist. So the blurry line. Yeah. Facebook being a new source that people rely on now. And the same with Twitter is breaking news coverage and that alongside new forms of media and websites.
And one of the things I'm really interested in that you mentioned earlier is, um, The technology that tries to bring together lots of different perspectives. And so again, one of the things I've noticed is the division between right and left and, uh, the echo chambers, it was old and, and that kind of thing. How has the response been to sort of there Mmm, bring together new sources to try and provide that, uh, unbiased perspective then.
Rebecca: [00:20:09] I'm not sure that people value the unbiased perspective. So putting that aside though, there was a very interesting blog post written recently by a political blogger. And he surveyed his readers who are probably right of center and asked them how they perceived the left slash right versus center bias of many popular websites and newspapers.
And it was, yeah. So yeah, that's kind of interesting. Yes. I know those people are generally right when those people are a bit more left wing, but she then added a supplemental question that says, and how did you vote in the last election? And he was able to cross correlate people, bare in mind, sorry. New Zealand has a, um, A voting system that is, has given us a coalition government.
So although the labor party is supplying the prime minister there in coalition with the greens and New Zealand, first New Zealand first is a slightly more right wing entity, as you can probably imagine. And the greens are a bit more neutral. The, uh, voting, you can vote the two things you vote nationally for a party.
And you have a second vote for your local MP, which is it's a first pass, the post thing. So it's a blended voting system. And so you can vote for an MP that you like, and you can vote nationally for the D a different party. But when he overlaid people's voting at the last election with that preference perceptions of local media, it became very, very interesting because you could see that people who had voted labor, for example, on the left wing, had a much stronger perception of which media they thought were right wing, which was very much at odds with what I would consider.
Those media to be, if you think about them and you think, Oh, they're a little bit right of center. But if you're a left wing voter, they perceived them as being much more right. When they actually are. And Basically came out as being absolutely plumbed down the middle because they are clear that they separate news from opinion.
And they don't actually report much politics. It's not their area of that bailwick, I suppose.
Tim: [00:22:39] So what they're, they're interested in local business news, how local is local? Is that New Zealand wide or is it city city scale or, or, you know, um, you know, does it include Australia? How are, where, how what's the range of that?
Rebecca: [00:22:57] It's brief is not local news. It's brief is anything that affects the economy. So they will be reporting on international news. They report on what's happening to the gold price. They report on Bitcoin. They report on, um, the factory output survey results from China, from Singapore, from Japan. They look at, uh, they say global look, but the way it gets interpreted locally is they have a very, very large section that writes about the property market here.
The vast majority of. Of the average person's wealth here is tied up in real estate. So people obviously. Own their own homes in the same way that they do in great Britain. And there is a very large private rented rental sector and people who have saved very successfully for their retirement through increasing capital values in the residential real estate markets.
And that has happened right across the country, but particularly in Aukland. So Oakland is a city of over one and a half million people. It's not the capital, but it is the largest commercial center. And before lockdown, New Zealand had a net migration figure of around 75,000 people a year moving to live in this country.
And the vast majority of them live in Aukland. So Aukland has a very bubbly housing market areas, always a shortage of residential accommodation here. And as a consequence, any movement in house prices is of interest to a very large number of people because that is their retirement fund.
Tim: [00:24:35] So that's going to be a big pit.
Well, and I guess that given that it was originally around interest rates, there's a sort of historical backing to being in that, that whole kind of mortgage, um, world. So so. Alright. So in a sense, they're staying true to their roots, but broadening out to being more kind of broader business. Interesting.
And how do they, um, we've talked about like the idea that they might recruit through through word of mouth. Um, how else, and people might sort of happen on them. Do they do any other advertising they're advertising? Do they advertise through what's effectively their competitor Facebook, or do they take Google ads?
They use YouTube, you know, what's the, what's the strategy.
Rebecca: [00:25:22] The website does not advertise its own business at all. If you want to share those articles onto other social media sites, they're happy with that. They do have a YouTube channel and they do a two very popular daily articles. One is called 90 at nine, and it's supposed to be 90 seconds long at 9:00 AM.
And it's a YouTube video and a written article and a podcast. And that is everything that has happened overnight. That's New Zealand. So the editor, uh, sorry that David Chason, who's the owner of the website. He presents all of those. He's not actually the editor of the site and there is a second one done, at
four o'clock in the afternoon, which is everything that happened during the day that you need to know. And you'll probably read it or watch it as, as you drive home. But the other side. Of the equation. How do people discover this website? They have a vast number of calculators. So you will go and say, how much do I need to retire?
And if you search on And said, you will find their calculator comes up amazingly well in natural search, they have a really large number of very different calculators that draw people into the website. When they're looking for answers for personal finance, from a neutral. Place. So you might be searching for mortgage rates.
You might be searching for term deposit rates. You might be searching for life insurance. You know, there are a lot of different personal finance products and they spend invest a lot of time and keep staying up to date with tiny changes in a lot of different offerings and aggregating them onto single pages.
So they draw people to the site through their own IP. Which is obviously, as I said, long standing, so they don't advertise at all. And that possibly is unusual.
Tim: [00:27:24] That's really funny from the, uh, for, for us, because we, that we've just done and actually just pushed out a podcast about people who are recruiting, um, interest in their services again, by educating people about financial.
Uh, services it's like, uh, although they were doing that over SMS, because that was the best medium for Zambia. So it's like really, um, really funny to hear kind of, not the same story, but correlations of like, you know, the way to, to get genuine recruits is to provide fairly unbiased information. I think that's really interesting.
Sorry, this is somewhat of a tangent, but like, Really funny to see that loop back there.
Rebecca: [00:28:09] But Tim, I'm a business to business marketer. That's education as a marketing tactic works extremely well in business to business. Particularly if you can suspend your own natural bias or presented in a way that says, and our point of view is so that the reader understands, this is where you're doing the sales pitch.
Tim: [00:28:30] Yeah. Drawing that, that bright line so that people know when, when you're doing it. Yeah. Interesting. So, so I think I asked you about Facebook and I don't know if you answered how's the, what's the relationship with
Rebecca: [00:28:43] Facebook tolerated, but again, here, young people don't use Facebook. They use Instagram. Um, they've also stopped using Snapchat.
They have lots of private messaging groups from all through all sorts of different services. They communicate hugely with their friends and most of them are not interested in Facebook at all. So if Facebook is a news distribution tool, I don't think it gets an enormous amount of traction with people who are under 30.
Tim: [00:29:17] So, so your word of mouth is actually word of mouth over WhatsApp or word of mouth over whatever, um, whatever the local, right. Interesting. Yeah. That's that's fascinating. And what is whilst we're talking about media, what about video? You, you mentioned that the, the 90 at 9 is, um, is released as a YouTube video and the podcast Anders as text, um, Is video a big part of this still, or two people still grabbed by video
Rebecca: [00:29:51] hugely.
And one of the things that I notice is how people use video to engage with the sort of niche areas of their own interest. So my husband, for example, watches an enormous amount about electric vehicles. He is also a total Tesla fan boy. And there is an enormous number of people who, um, are into, you know, motor sport, motor industry.
And then he goes and researches financial services and different types of cryptocurrency and the. Stock market. So he has three or four, not overlapping areas of interest. And if I look at his youtube video feed, he will choose that over any form of print. He personally loves the video and I know he's not alone.
There are lots of people here who find YouTube as an incredible source of innovate, a credible source of information. And happily consume it.
Tim: [00:30:55] Fascinating. I I'm. And how does that you take advantage of that as it from a, from a kind of, how do you compete with it? I suppose, is the question.
Rebecca: [00:31:09] That's the problem.
You can't game these algorithms. You can advertise to go into certain people's feeds and, you know, popular people do get paid through advertising, but quite a lot of people reject all advertising on YouTube and, you know, they can allow their audience an uninterrupted viewing. I find it hard to know because you.
I think the data and the statistics are hard to track. So as a marketer, I can go to use various tools to make estimates of traffic to your website, compared with mine. But everything that's on a YouTube platform. All you can see is how many people have watched a particular video. You, you don't really, unless you're the channel owner, you can't get demographics, you can't get estimates of nationality or geography.
So it's very, very hard to know who is using YouTube and for what.
Tim: [00:32:12] And is that something that you, you can't, so you can't use it directly in that sense? Um, is there a way of kind of sidestepping it so that it doesn't, you know, 'cos my feeling is that the moment you, you, you link to YouTube video, you've effectively lost that person's. View they're off, they're gone. Um,
Rebecca: [00:32:36] it depends if you've embedded it in your website.
That's the first thing. The second thing is there are some tech marketing tactics that you can use at the end of your video to have a long, still with visual links, to other videos on your channel. Otherwise, YouTube default is then to fill the screen with a whole range of different. Alternative videos, which you could click on some of which have got nothing to do with you or the subject matter it's about the viewer and what they think they can persuade you to click next.
And then as you know, it automatically loads up what it thinks is the next best video. For that person to watch and you as the brand owner have no control over that. So the only way round it is to have a very long and I mean over 30 seconds, still image at the end, possibly play music, but with links on the screen so that you can try and persuade the watcher to stay with you rather than go elsewhere.
Tim: [00:33:48] Um, yeah, it's, um, I'm not a YouTube user. I'm also not an Instagram user. So I'm like, I'm not, not the right person for the dealing with that age group. Vim you can help us out here maybe.
Vim: [00:34:01] Um, I don't need you tube, but I, and I've only just got Instagram. So I break all of the sparrows. That's my age bracket.
However, Well, um, I found really interesting on Instagram as an engagement tool that I fallen and for, um, is the interactive data gathering. Um, so where you feel like your opinion or voice matters through think tanks or groups of organizations. So even simple things of like, which of these looks better.
or, you know,
tell us about how you
reacted to
Boris's latest statement. Um, all of those things that we it's so easy to forget, you're giving data and taking part in a survey where that information will be used to inform something. Versus this is just a bit of fun for me to do when I've got five minutes to flip through questions on my phone.
And I think that type of engagement. And buying into a brand and business is something that I, as a new user, I hadn't come across before.
Tim: [00:35:17] So where does that data go? Does that go to Instagram or does it go to the channel? I mean, I'm, I'm totally ignorant.
Vim: [00:35:25] do you know? I don't know.
Rebecca: [00:35:29] Tim. I mean, Instagram, we'll see some of it, but I'm not sure what they would particularly do with that.
Cause remember in Instagram feed is you following all the people that you follow, they don't, you, there are some sponsored inserts. They'll say, you know, if you like Tim, you might like them. You like to follow this person or this brand, but it's. There is more control over what you see in your feed. So I have, I've had an Instagram account for a long time, but I don't see the sort of thing you're describing Vim.
Tim: [00:36:06] Yeah. So, so these we re, we we re sort of looking at platforms here and I'm trying to work out whether we've missed anything out, we've talked about like our own site, you know, running your own website as a, as a, as a tactic that sort of went out of fashion for a long time. Do you think it's coming back?
Rebecca: [00:36:29] I wasn't aware it had gone out of fashion.
My policy has always been to advise clients to own the media that they want to use leaving your website. Yeah. If, if Facebook goes down and your business is dependent on Facebook, you've got a real problem. There are other things that I think you should be considering. Um, I mentioned substack earlier, which is a paid for newsletter platform.
Where brand owners can sell their newsletter. Okay. There is also, um, Patreon for a long time where people can solicit donations and subscription donations for their content, but there are also new platforms that are, um, Arising I'm one of the newer business models that I've, it's not, you, you know, medium is a blogging platform, but again, it's owned by the people who founded Twitter.
It's that had a lot of credibility for a long time, but it's still not owned by you, even if you choose to put your content out through it. But I am noticing in my own email and that my skipper subscription habits. So I look at a broad sweep of what am I subscribed to and every now and then you go, I've got too much.
I need to unsubscribe. I am finding that there are four or five people who subscriptions. I really like, and I choose to read because they curate a particular topic extremely well. And their newsletters deliberately include quite a lot of different things. Some of their own work, some interpersonal things they've spotted from other people and so on.
And I think that curation is a new tactic, which can be then delivered to an audience possibly through a paid medium, but like substack where people will pay someone else to filter the news and to take the time to filter the news. So that you can enjoy it. And there's a news app that I have like that.
And there's a couple of newsletters that I've received like that. And,
Tim: [00:38:40] and are you paying for an editorial voice or are you paying for them filtering out the dross?
Rebecca: [00:38:51] It's not so much the dross, the dross. So a couple of minutes, examples that I'm thinking of, I have one is a leading edge, interesting tech and other one is very marketing focused.
And what I pay them for is they are people who've been in the industry for a long time. They're good at spotting trends and new tools and apps. And. Interesting commentary and they also capable of adding their own commentary. So I'm paying for an editorial overlaid with what does this person find?
Interesting. And then I received that and think, and can I interpret that into my, usually it's my business life always know the tech one is more things I'm interested in following. So some of that is very much about tips and tricks for cameras and microphones and podcasting apps and services and things, which is one of my areas of interest.
So I think that it's a blend of editorial. It's not so much filtering out dross, but it's filtering quality. That would be how I'd call it.
Tim: [00:40:01] Okay. And one thing we haven't talked about is radio. Is there still a place for radio?
Rebecca: [00:40:09] Oh, totally. That it is very fragmented. Um, but no niche radio, I think has still got a very, very strong place, whether or not you can find the advertisers to support your programming is a bigger challenge.
So we have a situation here in New Zealand, a bit like the BBC, we have a national broadcaster and the national broadcaster has a couple of TV channels and quite a few radio channels. Um, but again, they. They suffer because we don't have a license fee. They are funded by government. Um, and they do carry it some advertising as well, but it's challenging.
I think. Radio has been cut back quite a bit recently in there was they've closed down a couple of, um, radio stations that were part of the national broadcaster and also a couple of TV channels recently have consolidated. And it it's a very uneasy time I think, to be in radio or TV.
Tim: [00:41:12] Hmm. Yeah. And we haven't talked about TV either, but that's a whole, um, I mean, I, I, you mentioned radio because again, we, we, we were kind of, I was surprised that on the previous podcast, the idea that using radio, just to seed the interest in then actually an SMS service, I thought that was like, know, there's a whole bunch of stuff.
I hadn't. Thought about going on there. Um, cause you can read out a phone number and say, you know, press inform or whatever, send inform to that and a quick radio ad and it actually works better than trying to read out to URL or anything. Um,
Rebecca: [00:41:49] interesting. And I think that applies very much to podcast in where you are listening.
To a podcast usually while you are doing something else, which might be walking the dog or doing the dishes and therefore the show notes in a podcast are absolutely critical. And I think a lot of people underestimate them. So saying the link is in the show notes is it's probably one of the most important phrases in podcasting.
Tim: [00:42:13] Yeah, no, we, we, we do do, we do try and get links into our show notes. Um, we're trying to be good in that respect.
Vim: [00:42:21] We just don't tell people about them.
Tim: [00:42:23] Okay. So the links are in the show notes, go to our website. Have
Rebecca: [00:42:27] you noticed, have you noticed radio shows also putting themselves out as podcasts? Because I see that here, there's a very popular woman called Karen Hay, who has a nice magazine radio show.
And I don't get to listen to it cause it broadcast in the middle of the afternoon when I'm at work, but I can pick it up as a podcast. And I've definitely seen the same with fie and Jane Jane, is it Jane Glover and fee can't remember her surname? One of the used to be on women's hour. That's it? Their podcast.
Is now going to be broadcast on radio. So they've done the opposite, which is you're having started as a podcast. They're now moving into radio, whereas Karen has done the opposite.
Tim: [00:43:13] Yeah, that podcast. Very funny, actually. Um, and the history of it's funny. Sorry, go on.
Vim: [00:43:19] Okay. I think that cross channel sharing is happening more and more, and you say it with podcasting and YouTube as well.
I'm recording. Podcast sessions with the video to have it on a podcasting platform where you just listen and then as a video tool for that visual aid as well. So I think that kind of sharing is happening more and more.
I don't think it's broken into TV
or the podcast to TV realm, but I think it's probably going to,
Rebecca: [00:43:49] I do that for my podcast with exactly what you described.
Yeah. Yeah.
Tim: [00:43:54] I mean, I think also the, with radio, the blur between, you know, with lockdown the inability to get into the studio, they've ended up using podcasting tools and then it, like, it sounds like a podcast, even if it wasn't intended as one. So, you know, there's this sort of, um, weird, uh, Inevitability about that, I think somehow or not inevitability, but you know, circumstantial, um, events there, we've kind of forced it to happen,
Rebecca: [00:44:24] which is why people like me have discovered that cars are incredibly well sound, isolated.
And if you want to do a podcast, recording sits in the backseat of your car and if you're at home and you can't do that. Put a blanket over your head.
Tim: [00:44:40] Yeah, we we've, we've never really got, um, that, uh, precious about, I mean, the audio and has to be interesting and we spend effort like spreading it out over the audio spectrum.
Um, so it's like both sides, but we kind of wanted to make sure that people felt comfortable in it rather than the necessarily getting the last. Um, when I, whatever it is, few Hertz or studio quality in there that that sort of didn't seem to be the most important piece of it. Um,
Rebecca: [00:45:10] Fidelity is the way
Tim: [00:45:12] yes.
Fidelity indeed. Now we were, we weren't, we weren't after like the highest possible fi indeed. Um, so, so Vim has a final question, which we always ask at this point, and I'm going to, going to let you do this for Vim,
Vim: [00:45:29] for you. What do you see the future being.
Rebecca: [00:45:34] I'm confused. I see a couple of things that really excite me, which is innovation adaptation of circumstance. Making the world work for you. And the other bit of the future, which frankly scares me is a realization that the powers that be have an enormous amount of control over our lives and do it.
Effortlessly without us being able to influence outcomes. And one of the things that I think the current political situation is showing us is that there are so many vested interests who work behind the scenes and we are becoming increasingly aware of how they work in liberal democracies, as well as in dictatorships.
Those scare me, but yeah, the capacity of human beings to be inventive. Creative and kind, and caring is also remarkable as in worthy of being remarked upon. And I have a huge faith in the future of the human race. Having said that it's very clear, there's no one answer and you know, much as you might loath someone like extinction rebellion.
They have been an extremely effective tool in the political spectrum of climate change awareness. And yet we also know that on the flip side of it, you know, mainstream politicians are working hard and industry is working hard. And how are we using electricity and transitioning out of fossil fuels? So I think that I see a blended future, which advances very unevenly.
For New Zealand. I think we are a country that geographically is becoming increasingly desirable. I think resisting the urge to allow rich Americans to buy their way into a residency in this country is important. And I also think though that as a creative innovating nation, we have a continued ability to punch above our weight.
And I think more of the rest of the world is interested in doing there's New Zealand. Did I see that in things like venture funds, setting up small offices here and having people scouting for, you know, the next novel business that they could invest in. So I actually am an optimist on balance, but that is my natural tendency.
And I also think we've shown that lockdown has taught us a few things or reminded us of a few raw human truth, some of which we would possibly feel uncomfortable with. Um, and I hope that we don't forget those.
Tim: [00:48:23] Do you think I'm going to kind of put a final, final question on that? Which is, do you think that the way that media is evolving is going to help the positive side of that story you're telling?
Or do you think it's a, it's a blocker.
Rebecca: [00:48:39] I think it's a blocker. Popular media can only run on topics that are of popular interest. And that is why the shock element, the click bait element is so effective and we are not good enough at teaching in our educational institutions. And I mean, you know, kindergarten up to university, we are not good enough at teaching people.
How to fact check. And how to it confirm whether or not their own inbuilt bias, all being reflected in what they're choosing to read.
Tim: [00:49:18] Yeah. Yeah. Actually that's probably a slightly depressing, but, but important point to leave it, I think. Um, so indeed the, the links will be in the show notes, um, on distributed future.
Um, and, uh, yeah. Thank you so much for joining us. Um, and, and I'm very jealous of your sunshine over there.
Vim: [00:49:41] Well, thank you so much.
Rebecca: [00:49:43] It was great. Hanging out with you guys. Thank you. Have a
Vim: [00:49:47] great day.